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AUXLANG  February 2007, Week 3

AUXLANG February 2007, Week 3

Subject:

Re: [NEWS] New language for divided Cameroon

From:

[log in to unmask]

Reply-To:

[log in to unmask]

Date:

Wed, 21 Feb 2007 10:39:28 -0500

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (179 lines)

li [Antonielly Garcia Rodrigues] mi tulis la

> On 2/20/07, [log in to unmask] <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> > li [Antonielly Garcia Rodrigues] mi tulis la
> >
> > I think "corrupt" is really just a way of saying it's non-standard.
> 
> The pejorative sense of "corrupt" does not seem to indicate just
> "non-standard". The Portuguese spoken in my region is non-standard,
> but it is not "corrupt" by any linguistic measure. The English you
> learned in your region almost certainly isn't the standard, but it is
> not "corrupt" either. Labelling a language variety as "corrupt" is a
> manifestation of linguistic prejudice.

Actually the region where I live now is very non-standard and may be
considered "corrupt" by many however it is not my dialect.  I am
originally from S. California where the dialect is very close to the
American standard.

Maybe "corrupt" isn't a good word.  I think "deviated" may better
decribe non-standard forms but even that word has some perjorative
connotations.  

> > Things in the world work together because we have 
> standards.  Language
> > is no different.  Without a standard, a language will 
> ultimately break
> > down making it difficult for people to communicate.
> >
> 
> Ok. I have no problem with standards. In fact, I encourage 
> their existence.
> 
> >  Ultimately the chosen language will thrive while the others
> > eventually fades away.
> >
> 
> Is it desirable? Minority languages should be protected, not
> extinguished. 

Actually I'm in the minority here, but don't see any real value to
retaining languages.  They are a means to communication.  Whether a
particular language is used or not really doesn't matter much as long as
people are able to convey their messages.  Languages have been going
extinct since long before anyone knew there was such a thing as
"language".  I don't really think these minority languages needs to be
protected, but it does make a lot of sense to at least document them for
historical purposes.  


> What will happen to people that live on the "transition
> phase" and have not learned the chosen language? We all know that
> mastering a foreign language is not easy, specially for people who are
> not committed to a lot of study along many years.

What happens anywhere where people speak a non-official language?  They
will continue to use their language.  It's just that it won't be the
language of education and government.  


> Look at what UNESCO says about it:
> "An ever-increasing body of empirical evidence indicates that 
> there is a
> critical relationship between individuals' opportunity to use their
> mother tongue in a full
> range of cultural, scientific and commercial areas, and the
> socio-economic well-being of their respective language communities.
> People whose mother-tongue is not (or not
> sufficiently) developed from the point of view of terminology and
> special purpose
> languages (SPL) or who are denied the use of their mother-tongue in
> education and
> training, for accessing information, or interacting in their work
> places, tend to be
> disadvantaged."
> Source: http://unesdoc.unesco.org/images/0014/001407/140765e.pdf

That's all the more reason to have everyone speaking ONE language.  To
put them all on a level field.  Unfortunately, the U.S. is heading in
the other direction, in some areas going as far as to teach classes in
Spanish at the expense of English.  Living in the U.S. without English
ability these children will never be part of the mainstream.  It's not
that Spanish is "inferior" in any linguistic sense but it's just that
English is our common language and that needs to be recognized and
promoted.


> > > When will educational authorities learn to appreciate the popular
> > > linguistic manifestations as something that reflects the popular
> > > culture, not as something that "destroys" the "real" language and
> > > should be stigmatized? When will they learn that the standard
> > > normative form of the language is not THE language, but 
> just one of
> > > the many variations the language possess?
> >
> > IF they did that then they really wouldn't have much use 
> for English or
> > French, and they'd have to teach school in a mix of local dialects.
> > That doesn't do much to unite the population.
> >
> 
> Appreciating the vernacular languages does not mean going against a
> standard. It means eliminating the stigmatization of languages which
> are home languages for many people. The ideal is not to reduce the
> appreciation for the standard, but to increase the appreciation for
> the vernacular languages as languages that have associated popular
> cultures.

Think like a politician for a minute though.  They are trying to unite
the people of their nation, not divide them.  Language is a powerful
force in uniting or separating people.  I'm not saying these place
should outlaw other languages, just that they need to choose one as
their lingua franca and that should be what it used for all official
purposes, including education.  Look at China for example.  China is
made up of hundreds of local dialects, but the language of schools and
government is Mandarin.  People still use their local languages and
dialects but when two people from different regions need to communicate,
they can use Mandarin.


> Education authorities can establish the teaching of languages as an
> attitude towards the appreciation of the vernacular languages as an
> important part of the cultural identity of communities
> (conscientization) while clarifying to the students that it is also
> important to master the standard language for interacting with the
> government, getting jobs and climbing the social pyramid.

Unfortunatly, it's really not possible to do both.  It's the immersion
in the second language that's makes people fluent.  Teaching them in
their own language then makes the national language less important and
nobody will bother learning it.

> > These languages and dialects are definitely languages in their own
> > right, but again *some* standard needs to be chosen.  
> English has many
> > dialects but only a couple are used as standards which are generally
> > what the media use.  Without that standard, we'd turn on 
> our televisions
> > and radio and hear a mix of local slang that may or may not 
> be familiar
> > to the listeners.
> 
> No problem with that. A standard has to be chosen, but language
> teaching classes should also strive for improving the appreciation of
> the students in their regional dialects (which has a great importance,
> specially in informal communication). In the case of a monolingual
> country, every speaker should be made poliglot in its own language.

That's what I'm saying.  The national language needs to be taught, and
the best way is to teach it to children starting at a young age when
they will best be able to learn it by total immersion.  They will still
have their mother tongues as long as those tongues exist in the streets
of their communities.  Realize that a lot of these "minority" languages
simply don't have written/literary forms anyway.

> This way, the speaker would be able choose the most suitable language
> variant to each context. Although important, the standard norm of the
> language is not suitable to all contexts, and this should also be made
> clear.

There's no doubt that there's an advantage to knowing more languages,
but in the real world most people see language as a way of
communicating.  If you do some reading on N. American languages you'll
notice that most of the younger generations prefer to use English over
the historical language of their people.  Why?  Probably because they
prefer the language that gives them a bigger audience over one that is
confined to just a few thousand people.  The few languages that are not
in danger are mainly being kept alive by preservationist movements.

Once big fallacy I see in the IAL movement is that an world language
will somehow preserve local languages.  It won't!  Should a WAL be
adopted by the masses, it will only be a matter of time before it starts
becoming L1 for a few, and then a few more until eventually the language
becomes popular enough to where it's preferred to the local languages.
This will probably take generations to happen but it will happen just as
the colonial languages eventually came to dominate the Americas.
Esperanto is still far from reaching its intended goal of becoming the
world's lingua franca but already has a few L1 speakers.

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December 2003, Week 5
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December 2002, Week 1
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January 2002, Week 1
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June 2001, Week 5
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June 2001, Week 1
May 2001, Week 5
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May 2001, Week 3
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May 2001, Week 1
April 2001, Week 5
April 2001, Week 4
April 2001, Week 3
April 2001, Week 2
April 2001, Week 1
March 2001, Week 5
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March 2001, Week 3
March 2001, Week 2
March 2001, Week 1
February 2001, Week 4
February 2001, Week 3
February 2001, Week 2
February 2001, Week 1
January 2001, Week 5
January 2001, Week 4
January 2001, Week 3
January 2001, Week 2
January 2001, Week 1
December 2000, Week 5
December 2000, Week 4
December 2000, Week 3
December 2000, Week 2
December 2000, Week 1
November 2000, Week 5
November 2000, Week 4
November 2000, Week 3
November 2000, Week 2
November 2000, Week 1
October 2000, Week 5
October 2000, Week 4
October 2000, Week 3
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October 2000, Week 1
September 2000, Week 5
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September 2000, Week 3
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September 2000, Week 1
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March 2000, Week 2
March 2000, Week 1
February 2000, Week 5
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February 2000, Week 1
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December 1999, Week 5
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December 1998, Week 5
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May 1998, Week 1
April 1998, Week 5
April 1998, Week 4
April 1998, Week 3
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April 1998, Week 1
March 1998, Week 5
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February 1998, Week 5
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December 1997, Week 5
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