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AUXLANG  February 2007, Week 3

AUXLANG February 2007, Week 3

Subject:

Re: [NEWS] New language for divided Cameroon

From:

[log in to unmask]

Reply-To:

[log in to unmask]

Date:

Wed, 21 Feb 2007 18:19:34 -0500

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (241 lines)

li [Antonielly Garcia Rodrigues] mi tulis la

> On 2/21/07, [log in to unmask] <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> >
> > Actually I'm in the minority here, but don't see any real value to
> > retaining languages.  They are a means to communication.  Whether a
> > particular language is used or not really doesn't matter 
> much as long as
> > people are able to convey their messages.  Languages have been going
> > extinct since long before anyone knew there was such a thing as
> > "language".  I don't really think these minority languages 
> needs to be
> > protected, but it does make a lot of sense to at least 
> document them for
> > historical purposes.
> >
> 
> That political opinion is one of many. It is a very controversial
> subject. Check some laymen opinions here:
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/talking_point/664149.stm

I realize it's very controversial.  Unfortunately too many can't see the
practical value of sticking to a single language.  The concept of
standardizing things goes well beyond language, and even then there are
controversies.  The U.S. has yet to fully adopt the metric system, why?
Well, because the existing system is too deeply entrenched and because
there are those that don't see the value in aligning themselves with a
standard that the whole rest of the world uses.  Some countries are
still driving on the left side of the road.  Again, why?  I'm sure car
makers would love to eliminate the need to make two different types of
cars when it would be easiest for everyone if we just chose one side and
stuck with it.  Language creates the same issues where lots of manpower
and resources are wasted on translating materials into so many
languages.  Resources that could be used for other, more constructive,
purposes.


> > That's all the more reason to have everyone speaking ONE 
> language.  To
> > put them all on a level field.
> 
> If we follow this thought to the last consequences, we would conclude
> that it would be much better if there were only one language for the
> whole world, and everybody be monoglot (except maybe some linguists,
> philologists, historians and language geeks).

Yes, ideally we'd be much better off if we could *all* communicate
easily with each other without any obstacles.  There would still be
dialects.  If the trends continue towards globalization this is
inevitable anyway.  It's just a matter of how long it will take and
which language will rise up, and how that will change the language in
question.  If I had to place bets, I'd put my money on some future
version of English and although I think a planned language would make
things much more painless for everyone, I doubt any have much of a
chance.


> >  Unfortunately, the U.S. is heading in
> > the other direction, in some areas going as far as to teach 
> classes in
> > Spanish at the expense of English.  Living in the U.S. 
> without English
> > ability these children will never be part of the 
> mainstream.  It's not
> > that Spanish is "inferior" in any linguistic sense but it's 
> just that
> > English is our common language and that needs to be recognized and
> > promoted.
> >
> 
> Yes, a standard has to be promoted. But this is not the same as
> "non-standard languages and language varieties have to be
> stigmatized.".

Unfortunately, you can't promote one without deprecating the others.
The choice of one language over another automatically moves it to a
"higher" status even if it doesn't intentionally "lower" the others.  


> > > ...
> 
> I agree with you about teaching the "standard" or "lingua franca". My
> argument is just that they can do it without stigmatizing other
> languages.

Again, see the above paragraph.  Escalating one automatically puts the
others at some type of "disadvantage".


> > > Education authorities can establish the teaching of 
> languages as an
> > > attitude towards the appreciation of the vernacular 
> languages as an
> > > important part of the cultural identity of communities
> > > (conscientization) while clarifying to the students that 
> it is also
> > > important to master the standard language for interacting with the
> > > government, getting jobs and climbing the social pyramid.
> >
> > Unfortunatly, it's really not possible to do both.  It's 
> the immersion
> > in the second language that's makes people fluent.  Teaching them in
> > their own language then makes the national language less 
> important and
> > nobody will bother learning it.
> >
> 
> One thing is to appreciate the non-standard language varieties.
> Another thing is to use them in the classroom as the teaching medium.
> I argued the former, not the latter point. 

That depends upon what you call "appreciation".  It's one thing to
acknowledge it's existence and plan for it, but another to make the
majority bend over backwards for the minority.

> The problem is the
> stigmatization and prejudice, not the "non-standardness" status of
> most language varieties. 

That's part of the human condition.  Prejudice and bigotry exist and
will always exist.  People love to find reasons to call themselves
"better" than others whether it be language, ethinicity, religion, race
or whatever.  Unfortunately there are always those willing to exploit
these aspects of a person for their own benefit.


> ....
> My point is: "students, non-standard is
> different from bad; non-standard is also good, and we have to
> appreciate it as a part of our cultural identity; but, due to
> practical world constraints, you have to learn the standard language
> too, which is also valuable by itself, and this will be the focus of
> our course."

Sounds nice, but that approach is like saying "you don't need another
language, but you do."  Those who try to retain these things in the name
of "cultural identity" are really just sheeple that can't break loose
from their need to "belong" to something and think for themselves.
Unfortunately this need to "belong" to something is another human fault
that's not likely to go away.



> > There's no doubt that there's an advantage to knowing more 
> languages,
> > but in the real world most people see language as a way of
> > communicating.
> >
> 
> If most people really saw it this way, everybody would be speaking the
> world language now. But it is not the case. Language discussions
> around the world often get emotional because language is not simply
> seen as a way of communicating. There is an affective and cultural
> dimension to it that we cannot neglect.

Yes, most of the resistance is geared toward some type of human need to
identify with some type of group.  Others have to do with religion since
many have some type of sacred language, usually one used in some sacred
documents from the past.  The other part of this isn't that people don't
like the idea of a world language, but resent the choice of language.
Some don't like English because it's associated with American
Imperialism, or view it as yet another Western intrusion rather than
just thinking of it as a way to talk to lots of people so the prejudice
and bigotry can work against promoting a language as well.

>   ..
> Many people, such as Basques, Canadians from Québec and many
> Bolivians, don't share the view that language is just a way of
> communicating. Would it be fair if someone imposes over them the
> ideology that language is just a way of communicating?

What price is Canada paying for bilingualism?  Again, people are just
not willing to separate communication and culture.


> > If you do some reading on N. American languages you'll
> > notice that most of the younger generations prefer to use 
> English over
> > the historical language of their people.  Why?  Probably 
> because they
> > prefer the language that gives them a bigger audience over 
> one that is
> > confined to just a few thousand people.
> 
> No. It is because their historical language has a very low prestige;
> for instance, one could rarely climb the social pyramid if he is
> monoglot in a low-prestige historical language. The issue has nothing
> to do with audience.

Do a little checking and you'll see that many indigenous cultures are
trying hard to preserve and encourage the use of their languages.  If
anything, this "cultural identity" should give it plenty of prestige.
There are lots of things working against them, not just the shadow of
English.  Some are spoken languages and the purists don't want to make
them into written languages because they consider that to be an
unwelcome change because it breaks the oral tradition of their culture.
A literary tradition works to propogate a language much more than spoken
word alone.  


> > The few languages that are not
> > in danger are mainly being kept alive by preservationist movements.
> 
> The fact the they are kept alive due to preservationist movements is a
> symptom of their too low prestige along a big enough period that made
> the language be increasingly less used to the point of being under
> risk of extinction.

Or just natural selection doing its work linguistically while these
cultures resist out of their own sense of ethnic pride.


> > Once big fallacy I see in the IAL movement is that an world language
> > will somehow preserve local languages.  It won't!  Should a WAL be
> > adopted by the masses, it will only be a matter of time 
> before it starts
> > becoming L1 for a few, and then a few more until eventually 
> the language
> > becomes popular enough to where it's preferred to the local 
> languages.
> 
> I agree with this. In the absence of an adequate language planning,
> the existence of a universally widespread auxlang will more likely
> supress other languages than preserve them. 

Even without language planning, it's probably going to happen anyway.
As the World's leaders move towards a global economy you'll see more
mobile populations, more globalization of the media and other factors
that will ultimately unite people linguistically.

> But with a suitable
> language planning, we could preserve local languages while keeping a
> universally widespread auxlang. But it would cost a lot of money.

I don't think that's possible.  I think it can be delayed bu these
preservationist movement but it's only a matter of time before the major
languages are the only ones left, and eventually those will give way to
just one.  About the only thing to stop that would be a complete
breakdown of modern society along with the technologies and social
trends that are driving the push to globalization.

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February 2001, Week 1
January 2001, Week 5
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January 2001, Week 3
January 2001, Week 2
January 2001, Week 1
December 2000, Week 5
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