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AUXLANG  February 2007, Week 3

AUXLANG February 2007, Week 3

Subject:

Re: Apologia (was: "From Chernobyl with love")

From:

Steve Rice <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

International Auxiliary Languages <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Fri, 16 Feb 2007 03:00:16 -0500

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (145 lines)

On Thu, 15 Feb 2007 11:27:51 +0200, Isaac Penzev <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

>Hac sunt apologia mea.
>
>1. Destructive.
>
>1.1. I am not an auxlanger. I am engaged in creative linguistics for
>artistic self-expression and entertainment. I came to this list for getting
>wider experience, not to make humankind happier.

A lot of us agree with that. I don't see it as "destructive" in any sense.

>1.2. I don't think a WAL has something to do with happiness or solution of
>social problems. Moreover, success of an auxlang depends heavily on various
>extralinguistic factors - politics, finances, ethnic and religious
>background etc. - much more than on the flaws and advantages of a 
particular
>project.

Agreed.

>1.3. As for auxlang projects, debates about the advantages of one
>Romance-based lang over another seem naive tinkering, resembling mediaeval
>discussions on "how many demons may sit on the edge of a pin". For me as a
>person whose mother tongue is not Romance, all those "interlinguas",
>"occidentals", "novials" etc. looks like carbon-copied, a puzzle of "find 10
>differences" type. All of them have no advantage at all, if I speak Russian
>(Hindi, Hungarian etc.) Its "regularity" is annoying because I speak a
>fusional language and perceive any deviation from irregular forms in Russian
>(e.g. "makhayu" instead of "mashu" from the verb "makhat;") as a sign of
>illiteracy. On the other hand, pidgins aren't annoying. "Moja tvoja ne
>ponimaj" serves as a normal communication tool.

As I recall, the business about how many angels could dance on the head of a 
pin was just a more interesting title for a rather dry topic: Is there a 
difference between existence in space and extension in space? That is 
philosophically and theologically interesting, but not otherwise. Auxlang 
discussions are similar.

As to the usefulness of "Romance-based" projects (not even Interlingua is 
truly Romance based, so I've no idea what project you mean--perhaps Lingua 
Franca Nova?)--you say that they have no application to a russophone. This 
depends largely on the russophone. Even a modestly educated one--not 
necessarily a polyglot--will have run into territorija, dom, materija, mat' 
(materi--matre), videt', noviy, istorija (+-ik= Ia historico), and so forth. The 
roots are there for anyone who knows a Slavic language. They're also there 
(though a bit harder to spot) in Hindi, and owing to borrowings, they can be 
found in Japanese, Indonesian, and many others. The opposite is likewise true: 
if a non-Western form is truly international, it probably shows up in the 
Western languages.

I find it interesting that you reject perceived errors in a language yet have no 
problem with pidgins. This is the point I was trying to make about "io es" and 
similar oddities. A large percentage of Ia's target audience will perceive such 
things as errors, while the classic sign of a creole--using object pronouns also 
as subjects--will offend no one open-minded enough to contribute to an 
auxlang. (It also serves to filter out future deadwood and rebels.)

>1.4. A philosophic lang won't work. People aren't machines. Cognitive
>language abilities work differently, on some heuristic principles.

I don't think they work as auxlangs, but then, the definition of "philosophical 
language" is tricky in its own right.

>1.5. You often say: "People won't accept, People won't like, People would
>prefer". Who are you to speak on their behalf? Did you do sociological
>surveys, or at least polls? For more than four thousand years of documented
>history people always found some tools of interethnic communication, even
>they would seem difficult. Greek Koine or Modern Russian are a hell of a
>language, still they serve(d) well, and people learnt them an used them.

One of the quirks of human nature is that our general repsonses to not to vary 
over time, distance, and culture. There are plenty of differences over 
minutiae, but on general topics, we tend to be fairly uniform. This is why 
literature works. An Australian aborigine may not understand the settings of 
Shakespeare, but he will certainly recognize the characters and situations, 
which can be found in ancient Sumerian and Egyptian writings as well.

Based on such observations, I would hazard the guess that the distinction you 
make between errors and pidgins is quite common. All that is needed is the 
realization that people who speak pidgins are not therefore idiots. That's minor.

>2. Constructive.
>
>2.1. English serves as a de_facto lingua_franca in world relations. It is
>THE BAD THING, but I don't think we can somehow prevent it, or compete.

I don't see that it's even *A* BAD THING, much less the worst. I would rank 
AIDS as worse than English by a considerable margin: it actually kills people, 
while English mostly just annoys them. It is certainly AN IMPERFECT THING, 
and most of the auxlangs discussed here would be easier to learn and use. The 
problem is overcoming the prejudice that artificial languages are "fake," and so 
not truly languages at all.

>2.2. Esperanto is the most successfully realised IAL with at least hundreds
>of thousands of speakers. It is relatively successful for many
>extraliguistic reasons , but IMO, people like it because it is not purely
>Romance. It has an interesting mix in vocabulary, and clearly non-European
>agglutinative grammar of Uralo-Altaic type.

I don't think most people who actually use it care how much or little Romance 
background it has. In fact, some who thought it should have more Romance 
words and forms started their own projects instead, so not being strongly 
Romance is evidently not a clear-cut advantage.

>2.3. What kind of auxlang could be considered better suggestion for the 21st
>century? Not discussing the ways of its promotion, I will mention only some
>design principles. IMO, there are three possibilities for a better design.
>
>2.3.1. A naturalistic Romance-based conlang may be acceptable for the
>inter-Romance or, maximum, inter-occidental communication, and serve as a
>bridge to the Romance culture for the non-Romance ethnic groups. Thus, it is
>not a WAL in the proper meaning of the word, but still has some chance, if
>it only would deal away with non-Romance features in its grammar,
>overregularising its verb conjugation, pronouns system etc. because of
>"philosophic" reasons.

This is too ambiguous to answer. How "naturalistic"? Interlingua? Occidental? 
(There is a large difference between them!) Even "naturalistic" Interlingua has 
features no Romance language possesses (e.g., natural gender) and ignores 
some they all have (agreement between nouns and adjectives/verbs and 
subjects, multiple negation, subjunctive, preterite/imperfect, etc.).

>2.3.2. A world creole would be a better solution. It won't provoke "smell of
>imperialism". We see this, as many "new nations" adopt their creoles as
>national languages without feeling that it is "imported by oppressors". See
>the success of Bislama, Tok Pisin, Sranan, Afrikaans. Such a creole may be a
>mix of several European simplified vocabulary items plus widely accepted
>non-European regionalisms. All on the grammar common to natural creoles,
>like optional usage of TAMs instead of obligatory tense marking, analytism
>etc.

This is something various people here support, though I'm mildly surprised that 
you don't allow for non-Western sources as in Ceqli and Neo Patwa.

>2.3.3. To make it eevn more neutral, one may suggest to compose the basic
>vocabulary a_priori, taking into account sound symbolism and/or sound
>frequency in the major natlangs, and then to expand it with borrowing
>cultural items from their proper source langs (culture includes technology,
>too) and with word building by simple derivation and compounding.
>
I've suggested this also, as I'm sure you recall.

Steve

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December 2000, Week 5
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