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AUXLANG  February 2007, Week 3

AUXLANG February 2007, Week 3

Subject:

Re: Apologia (was: "From Chernobyl with love")

From:

Isaac Penzev <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

International Auxiliary Languages <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Fri, 16 Feb 2007 15:15:34 +0200

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (140 lines)

Steve Rice eskrisse:


> On Thu, 15 Feb 2007 11:27:51 +0200, Isaac Penzev <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
> As to the usefulness of "Romance-based" projects (not even Interlingua is
> truly Romance based, so I've no idea what project you mean--perhaps Lingua
> Franca Nova?)--you say that they have no application to a russophone.

No, I didn't mean it. I would call them "still foreign enough"

> This
> depends largely on the russophone. Even a modestly educated one--not
> necessarily a polyglot--will have run into territorija, dom, materija,
mat'
> (materi--matre), videt', noviy, istorija (+-ik= Ia historico), and so
forth. The
> roots are there for anyone who knows a Slavic language.

This is true, to some extent. Familiarity with Greco-Latin roots exists. But
most of them are psychologically perceived as "bookish". Don't forget also
about certain level of inimity to the "western things" existing in the
post-Soviet social conscience, esp. in Russia - Ukraine and Georgia may be
counterexamples, but only in the governing strata...

> They're also there
> (though a bit harder to spot) in Hindi, and owing to borrowings, they can
be
> found in Japanese, Indonesian, and many others. The opposite is likewise
true:
> if a non-Western form is truly international, it probably shows up in the
> Western languages.

Not sure if I got your thought clear :(

> I find it interesting that you reject perceived errors in a language yet
have no
> problem with pidgins. This is the point I was trying to make about "io es"
and
> similar oddities. A large percentage of Ia's target audience will perceive
such
> things as errors, while the classic sign of a creole--using object
pronouns also
> as subjects--will offend no one open-minded enough to contribute to an
> auxlang. (It also serves to filter out future deadwood and rebels.)

I think this is a subjective thing moulded by education. Russian school
makes the standard dialect extremely prestigeous, and stigmatises the
regional accents of a native speaker as "uneducated", but ethnic mentality
friendly accepts a foreigner who speaks just a couple of broken words yet by
means of that you may communicate...
But maybe it's just a more common thing based on subconscious xenophoby. It
needs futher investigation.

> >1.4. A philosophic lang won't work. People aren't machines. Cognitive
> >language abilities work differently, on some heuristic principles.
>
> I don't think they work as auxlangs, but then, the definition of
"philosophical
> language" is tricky in its own right.

Agree.

> One of the quirks of human nature is that our general repsonses to not to
vary
> over time, distance, and culture. ...
> All that is needed is the
> realization that people who speak pidgins are not therefore idiots. That's
minor.

Wisely said.

> The
> problem is overcoming the prejudice that artificial languages are "fake,"
and so
> not truly languages at all.

Any prejudice is difficult to overcome...
As for English, you see, I use it, teach it, earn money with it, and that's
ok. But I am afraid it really gives unnecessary advantage to the native
speakers. I 've been learning it for 30 years by now, and spend time almost
every day to be "in form", while I could use this time for something else.

> I don't think most people who actually use it care how much or little
Romance
> background it has.

I think some people would do care, if it started right now, and had no
relatively successful history. Anyway, I marked this item with "IMO" tag.

> This is too ambiguous to answer. How "naturalistic"? Interlingua?
Occidental?
> (There is a large difference between them!) Even "naturalistic"
Interlingua has
> features no Romance language possesses (e.g., natural gender) and ignores
> some they all have (agreement between nouns and adjectives/verbs and
> subjects, multiple negation, subjunctive, preterite/imperfect, etc.).

I would vote for "extremely naturalistic".

> >2.3.2. A world creole would be a better solution. It won't provoke "smell
of
> >imperialism". We see this, as many "new nations" adopt their creoles as
> >national languages without feeling that it is "imported by oppressors".
See
> >the success of Bislama, Tok Pisin, Sranan, Afrikaans. Such a creole may
be a
> >mix of several European simplified vocabulary items plus widely accepted
> >non-European regionalisms. All on the grammar common to natural creoles,
> >like optional usage of TAMs instead of obligatory tense marking,
analytism
> >etc.
>
> This is something various people here support, though I'm mildly surprised
that
> you don't allow for non-Western sources as in Ceqli and Neo Patwa.

Good. As for non-Western sources, they are ok too. I thought I could go for
a kind of compromise with "occidentalists" in this case ;)
The thing I really oppose, is eclectism, non-systematic or chaotic
borrowing. Every vocabulary item must be well-balanced.

> >2.3.3. To make it eevn more neutral, one may suggest to compose the basic
> >vocabulary a_priori, taking into account sound symbolism and/or sound
> >frequency in the major natlangs, and then to expand it with borrowing
> >cultural items from their proper source langs (culture includes
technology,
> >too) and with word building by simple derivation and compounding.
> >
> I've suggested this also, as I'm sure you recall.

I'm pretty new here. I've spent six years in the CONLANG-L, now it's a bit
quiet there, so I'm having fun here.

Thank you for your weel reasoned reply.

> Steve

-- Yitzik

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