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AUXLANG  February 2007, Week 3

AUXLANG February 2007, Week 3

Subject:

Re: Not-so-great Expectations

From:

Antonielly Garcia Rodrigues <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

International Auxiliary Languages <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Sat, 17 Feb 2007 00:44:33 -0200

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (202 lines)

On 2/16/07, Steve Rice <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> [...] I would simply observe that out of the source
> languages for Interlingua, most of them have something like "es" for a third
> person singular of the verb "be". With this in mind, "io es" will strike a lot of Ia's
> potential audience as meaning "I is" (or their language's equivalent).
>

I cannot speak on behalf of all the Romance language speakers, so I
will give my testimonial, which might not represent the view of most
Romance speakers. I am a native speaker of a Romance language,
Portuguese, and I have also studied Interlingua just for fun.

The most attractive thing I found in Interlingua was the vocabulary,
which is more translingual in form than the Portuguese vocabulary (for
the Angloromance world) and also has an "archaic" and elegant
look-and-feel for me. I didn't bother much with grammar. In fact, if
there were elements in Interlingua grammar that showed themselves much
more complex than the Portuguese grammar, I would give up studying it.
I refuse to study any conlang that has a verb inflection system more
complicated than the English verb system. For natlangs, I would accept
studying a more complicated system, but I would never accept it for a
planned language that is not officially adopted by any country.

I agree with your idea that "io es" sounds like [pt] "eu é" ([en] "I
is"), but I simply found it a funny feature, not an annoying feature.
However, my assessment quickly changed from "a funny feature" to "an
ingenious feature" because of something that has to do with my native
language. (Note: Here I adopt terminology of the standard Portuguese
grammar in my discussion of the Portuguese language, which may not
align well with the terminology used in Linguistics in English.)

In standard Portuguese, the conjugation of a verb such as [pt]
"gostar" ([en] "to like", "to enjoy") in the "simple present" is as
follows:

Eu gosto
Tu gostas
Ele gosta
Nós gostamos
Vós gostais
Eles gostam

As you can see, there is a different ending for each different
person-number pair. However, in the variation of Portuguese informally
spoken in my region, it is something like:

Eu gosto
Tu gosta
Ele/Você gosta -"você" is a synonym of "tu"
Nós gosta
........   -"vós" is considered as archaic
Eles/Vocês gosta

The ending which was used for the third person singular in standard
Portuguese is used for _all_ person-number pairs in the spoken
Portuguese of my region, except for the first person singular (which
retains the ending of the standard Portuguese). The same phenomenon
happens in the "perfect past", "imperfect past", "future of present"
and "future of past".

Compare it to the Interlingua system:
Io gusta
Tu gusta
Ile gusta
Nos gusta
Vos gusta
Iles gusta

The Interlingua system is remarkably similar to the system used in our
spoken Portuguese, except for the first person singular. This suffices
to convince me that it has a strong sense of "naturalness". The
"alien" feature applied to the first person singular it is not "alien"
enough for me to consider the whole system as "unnatural". Associated
with the fact that it simplifies and regularizes the system at a very
small cost (IMO), I found the adoption of the "third person singular"
in Interlingua as ingenious. A "natural" look-and-feel associated with
simplicity and regularity.

>
> If I see a language that looks something like Spanish, for example, and I
> examine it more closely and find it's a Spanish-based creole (or perhaps I'm
> ignorant, and it's really Portuguese or Catalan), no problem. Mistaken identity.
> But what if it turns out to be wearing a Spanish mask (or in the case of Ia, a
> Romance mask)? Don't I have a right to feel cheated when it does something
> contrary to Spanish or the Romance languages?
>
> This is why Ia is in its perpetual mess. There are always Romance speakers to
> say that some feature isn't right--it should work like a Romance language. So
> they make options into requirements and establish new rules. If they've had
> too much coffee, they'll add grammatical gender and personal forms for verbs.
>

I would never study a conlang that has grammatical gender and personal
forms for verbs.

> You see, if you try to make something look familiar, well and good. But
> whenever (in the name of simplicity, say) you abandon the natural, irregular
> path, the mask slips, and the defrauded learner either bolts or insists on
> setting things right. This is why it's important to establish independence early
> on: use "me" as a subject; spell "chemical" with a k. Act like a creole: anyone
> obnoxious enough to blow off a creole will laugh at ANYTHING you devise
> sooner or later, because it's bound to offend some unconscious prejudice.

My previous history may have given the impression that I completely
disagree with your ideas, when in fact I disagreed only with your
example. But I can show two features that, to a certain extent, make
me align with your opinion: 1) the simple past and 2) the inexistence
of a distinction between present participle and verb-derived nouns in
Interlingua.

1) In Portuguese, there is no "simple past". We have three forms of
past: "imperfect past", "perfect past" and "pluperfect past" (rarely
used in spoken Portuguese). We perform a distinction of usage between
the "imperfect past" and the "perfect past". We tend to use "imperfect
past" for things we _used to do_, while we use "perfect past" for
things we once _did_. Example:

"Eu _gostava_ de bolo, mas atualmente não consigo mais comer aquilo."
I _used to like_ cake, but nowadays I cannot eat it anymore.
("gostava" = "imperfect past" of "gostar")

"Eu _gostei_ do bolo que comi ontem."
I _liked_ the cake I ate yesterday.
("gostei" = "perfect past" of "gostar")

The "simple past" in Interlingua is structurally similar to the
"imperfect past" in Portuguese. However, the "simple past" in
Interlingua covers both usages in Portuguese (the "imperfect past" and
the "perfect past"). This way, I felt like losing an important
distinction for the language to be as "natural" as my native language.
In the beginning, it was a bit strange to use a feature like
"imperfect past" to also indicate "perfect past". I know that English
does not have that distinction, but, for a language that looks like
Portuguese, the lack of that distinction seemed strange for me.

2) In Portuguese, we adopt the ending "ndo" for present participle and
gerund, and typically adopt the ending "nte" for verb-derived nouns
(although there are also nounds ended in "ndo", such as "graduando"
[en: someone which is about to finish the undergraduate course, called
"graduação" in Portuguese] and "multiplicando" [en: multiplicand]).
But adopting the same ending ("nte") to cover both usages sounds very
strange for me. If the ending were "ndo" it would sound less strange
(as there is a small number of nounds ended in "ndo"), but it would
still sound strange.

As an example, I extracted the following statement from
http://ia.wikipedia.org/wiki/Numero_natural:
"[...] nos lo proba _scribente_ a <= b si e solmente si existe un
altere numero natural c que compli: a + c = b."
Uh! What a desire to change that "scribente" to "*scribendo" just to
make it more similar to [pt] "escrevendo"!

Because of that feeling of "unnaturalness", most times I manage to
avoid using the ending "nte" to cover present participle. I often
rewrite the sentence in another way in order to avoid it.

> Be similar enough to learn, but not so similar that you
> attract expectations you can't meet.
>

Maybe that explains one of the main disadvantages of conauxlangs which
are "regularized forms of natural languages" (e.g. English with all
the irregular verbs made regular).

To point out another example that complies to your conclusion, I felt
the adoption of "mal-" in Esperanto as strange at first because it was
structurally similar, in my view of a native Romance language speaker,
to the prefix "mal-" in Romance languages that possesses the sense of
"bad" and "badly". This becomes easy to conclude when we think of
terms such as [pt] "mal-educado" ([en] "rude", "non-compliant with
etiquette") and [pt] "maldizer" / "amaldiçoar" ([en] "curse", "the
opposite of bless which is [pt] 'bendizer' / 'abençoar'"). Of course,
none of this is new information to you; it is in fact a very old and
recurring criticism.

It seems that "mal-" is also a Slavic prefix with the sense of
"little"[*], but I don't know to which extent its meaning of
"opposite" in Esperanto would resemble Slavic and Romance languages.
AFAIK, "mal-" does not appear to have a strong enough natlang
precedent, so I still feel that if Z had chosen something like "de-",
"des-" or "dis-" it would have been better (understand "better" as
"more compliant with a principle I value in conauxlangs, namely the
Principle of Precedent in Natural Languages"). I understand when
Donald says that a Esperanto is autonomous, but it does not mean that
better design choices couldn't be done based on features of existing
natlangs.

In conclusion, the theoretical problem of [eo] "mal-" is that it is
remarkably similar in structure to constructions in other European
languages but its meaning is completely different. I know that this
does not affect much learnability and usability in practice, but, if
you are designing a new conauxlang, you can avoid one criticism if you
learn the lesson of [eo] "mal-". Note: I am not advocating an
Esperanto reform; for the sake of keeping the community alive, it is
better to leave the language the way it is and accept its stability.

(*)
http://claudepiron.free.fr/articlesenanglais/europeanorasiatic.htm
http://www.translationdirectory.com/article715.htm

Antonielly Garcia Rodrigues

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February 2001, Week 1
January 2001, Week 5
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January 2001, Week 3
January 2001, Week 2
January 2001, Week 1
December 2000, Week 5
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