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AUXLANG  March 2007, Week 3

AUXLANG March 2007, Week 3

Subject:

Re: Computer model hints at how opinions evolve

From:

Todd Moody <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Todd Moody <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Sat, 17 Mar 2007 07:56:02 -0400

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (159 lines)

On Sat, 17 Mar 2007 2:07 am, Antonielly Garcia Rodrigues wrote:
> On 3/17/07, Todd Moody <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>> If I said, "Critics keep trotting
>> out the same tired criticisms, no matter how many times Esperantists 
>> refute
>> them," you'd no doubt find the language just as loaded.
>>
>
> This is an attempt to make everything relative and to assume that
> everybody is consciously biased a priori.

No it isn't.  I reject relativism.

> The fact is that it *is*
> possible to make objective criticisms against Esperanto or against any
> other proposal. It is a matter of assessing whether a feature or a set
> of features is suboptimal in learnability and usability.

Yes that's true.

> The fact that most critics insist on the same points -- and no good
> defense has been created so far -- is at least a symptom that there
> may be something which isn't as good as it could be. We cannot simply
> discard the opinion of the critics as if they were "bad-intentioned
> enemies of the cause".

I don't claim that the critics are bad-intentioned.  They may be right.  
The point is that the persistence of the criticisms in itself doesn't 
show that they are right any more than the persistence of the defenses 
shows either that *they* are right or that the defenders are merely 
intransigent.  More is needed.

> Undoubtely, with each
> comment, there has been some progress. Many things are a tedious
> repetition of what has been said, but a few times a nice, brand new
> idea pops up.

Example:  the only argument I've ever see against adjectival accord is 
that it is redundant and many natlangs get along without it.  That 
argument doesn't support any conclusion unless you add the premise that 
whatever redundancy some natlangs get along without is best left out of 
an IAL.  But where is the argument for *that* premise?

>> Where accusative markers of some sort are not used, word order must be 
>> more
>> restricted.
>
> Accusative case is not the only possible solution to achieve flexible
> word order.

Agreed.

>> What most Esperantists believe (I believe) is that, given any Esperanto
>> reform proposal you like, the probability that it will result in a 
>> loss of
>> momentum of Esperanto, resulting from quarrels and factions, is 
>> greater than
>> the probability that it will result in a gain of momentum.
>
> This is a good argument for not making reforms at this moment, because
> it is a pragmatical argument based on knowledge on how Politics and
> human social interactions work. I agree with you.
>
> But it is not an argument for discarding the criticisms as if they
> were invalid. They *are* valid; it is just that, for tactical reasons,
> we cannot currently make reforms in the language.

I agree that some criticisms of Esperanto are valid. For example, I 
think it has been shown beyond any reasonable doubt that Esperanto's 
pronunciation could've been made more internationally accessible, in 
that it has more phonemes than most languages, and this list could've 
been shortened without giving up anything of importance.  Esperanto 
would be *better off* with a shorter list of phonemes because even if 
only a few people are deterred from learning by phonetic issues, that's 
still an objective loss without any compensating advantage.  I agree 
that the KIE row of correlative words was an unfortunate choice, since 
consistency with Esperanto's adverb system would suggest that KIE etc. 
should mean KIEL etc.  There are other criticisms of Esperanto that I 
regard as having been shown to be valid to any reasonable objective 
standard.

I do not think, however, that the crticisms against the accusative and 
adjectival accord fall into that category.  These criticisms are 
sometimes mentioned as if they were a logical fait accompli.

I've mentioned on multiple occasions that the aural redundancy of 
adjectival accord is an aid to understanding, especially in the spoken 
language.  I've yet to see anyone disagree.  I would add that aural 
redundancy is more important in a language that is supposed to function 
as an interlanguage, across differences in linguistic expectations, than 
it is in a normal L1 natlang.  It makes spoken sentences easier to parse 
in real time by repeating important syntactic information.  The 
criticism that it is unnecessary because L1 natlangs get along without 
it is irrelevant, since an IAL is not an L1 natlang.  Adjectival accord 
provides a real benefit to understanding the spoken language, and I've 
yet to see any plausible argument that the price to pay in difficulty is 
too great.  Adjectival accord just isn't that hard to learn.  My 
position is not based on relativism.

Concerning that accusative, I wouldn't argue that it is better than 
other ways of doing the semantic work that it does, only that it is no 
worse.  The use of the accusative is hard for many.  Why?  Because it 
requires them to keep track consciously of things that they may not have 
to keep conscious track of in their L1.  There trouble is, *any* system 
that does the work of the accusative will make the same demand *except 
one that works exactly the way their L1 does*.  You can say, as Ido 
does, don't use the accusative unless you deviate from SVO order, but 
that still requires the speaker to understand and track S and O, which 
is precisely what makes the accusative hard for some to learn.  You can 
say don't ever deviate from SVO, but that will be tricky for those who 
are used to deviating from it in relative clauses, questions, 
subordinate clauses, etc.  It forces them to think about what they are 
not used to thinking about in their L1.  You can say use a particle 
instead of an ending, but the rules for the use of that particle will 
still involve tracking things that one is not used to tracking.

> But the criticisms
> will not disappear because of it. That small stone inside the shoe
> cannot be removed at this moment, as it is an inevitable consequence
> of the (good) political decision of not making reforms.

It's not so much political as inductive.  It is extremely difficult to 
generate consensus on matters of auxlang design.  The critical 
"consensus" against the accusative and adjectival accord is artificially 
generated by excluding the opinion of those who are *not* critical of 
them.

>> Look at the history.  The Idists believed, and still believe, that
>> Esperanto's flaws were holding Esperanto back, and that fixing them 
>> would
>> allow it to succeed.  A large number of Esperantists agreed with them, 
>> but
>> most did not.  Ido has had a century to persuade both the Esperanto 
>> world
>> and the rest of the world that it is a superior IAL.
>
> I agree. Popularity does not depend only on technical factors.
> Marketability factors, history and resources to promote the language
> also play very important roles.

Let me ask this:  Suppose that tomorrow the Akademio were to publish an 
official reform, adopting Ido's treatment of accusative and adjectives, 
and Ido's phonology (and changed lexicon to support it, when necessary), 
and that's all.  Everything else stays the same.  What do you suppose 
would happen?

If history is any guide, some would take up the new version of 
Esperanto, others would form a preservationist movement to protect 
"classical" Esperanto, and still others would work for further reforms 
because the Akademio "didn't go far enough."  The latter segment would 
split up into various factions.

Every time anyone says "Esperanto should be reformed" I have to ask, is 
there any good reason to doubt that the above scenario would play out 
(again), and is there any good reason to believe that the IAL cause 
would be advanced by it?

Todd Moody

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