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AUXLANG  March 2007, Week 3

AUXLANG March 2007, Week 3

Subject:

Re: International Memorandum Nr. 17

From:

auliuniv <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

International Auxiliary Languages <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Sun, 18 Mar 2007 15:15:13 -0700

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (227 lines)

On 18 Mar 2007 at 18:18, Antonielly Garcia Rodrigues wrote:


> 
> Interlingua considers as its source languages *only* those which
> can
> be considered, among European languages, as the most important
> "centers of radiation" of words to other languages in the world.
> The
> other languages you listed are not among the most important centers
> of
> radiation, so they are not considered as source languages.
> 
> Interlingua is best recommended as a regional IAL, not the as the
> world IAL.


Thank you! Again, this is the whole point! InterlinguE was *not* developed to be a regional 
language. And, the other languages you mention a "not among the most important centers of 
radiation" again, misses the point.

They are *not* used as the "source" language alone, *unless* they support the word in 
question. Then, just as Occidental was designed to do, it is integrated into Occidental thus 
being able to include speakers of those languages. Whereas, as you say, ILa is *limited*, in 
essence to a *regional area*, and thus does not make for a good International language at 
all.

Here then, is the basic difference between Occidental and ILa, and your own words support 
it.

Occidental is meant to be as international as possible and accepts input from as many 
languages as possible to include the most people as possible.

Interlingua, on the other hand, limits itself to a region, primarily sud-romanic.

Thank you for having presented this, as this is the point I have wanted to make all along. 
And, this is why I have said Occidental in its structure and vocabulary can reach a much 
wider audience than ILa.

Another difference is this, in my mind, Interlinguists want and love a language that looks like 
another romance language and looks and tastes like ancient Latin too. Thus, they can 
present an "educated" look since only the "highly educated" study or have studied Latin. It is 
a language for academics who sit on cloud nine and believes the rest of the world loves 
ancient Latin too. Plus, many scientific words are "latin" and "greek". However, what the 
ILaists doesn't seem to see is that the scientific words are recognized as that. And, on top of 
that, the scientific words from latin and greek are also used in Occidental when speaking or 
writing for science.

Yes, you are totally right. ILa is restricted and limited to a regional usage. 




 It is an excellent IAL for the Angloromance world. I
> have
> never claimed it is the most suitable IAL for the whole world.
> 


Again, this is the very reason for Occidental over Interlingua. Occidental is not limited just to 
the angloromance world.



> What if, instead of having a WAL, we had 4 or 5 regional conIALs?
> I
> believe the latter objective would be easier to achieve than the
> former. The situation wouldn't be the ideal, but it would certainly
> be
> much better than the current situation.


That means then, that someone has to not only wade through the natlangs, but another 
additional half dozen or more "regional conIALs" and, frankly the world won't accept that. It is 
hard enough to get the world interested in one IAL, much less another half dozen.

This argument for 4-5 more, regional or not, seems to me to go against the basic reason 
those before us started looking for an IAL, not IALs.



> 
> For those who like the idea of a single WAL, it could be that the
> successful deployment of some regional IALs would be a good
> intermediate step to achieve the WAL. The WAL could be the result
> of
> the natural interaction between the regional IALs (like a pidgin
> or
> creole).


Takes too much time and too much selling to go this route. It has already been shown that 
this won't work. If it had, then we would already have a half dozen or more regional IALs.

The real solution is to USE ONE international auxiliary language and show the world it works, 
instead of showing them a new attempt every other day.

This kind of effort is one of the major reasons we will never have an international language or 
even a regional one that is actively used by the "world". And, until it stops, there will never be 
more than discussions on lists like auxlang about the languages versus using the languages 
on a massive scale.




> 
> >
> > > Li -o
> > > trova se in italian, hispan e portugalesi ma li form instrument,
> talmen
> > > scrit, es trovat in anglesi, francesi, ruman, german,
> nederlandesi,
> > > norvegian, dan, sved, polonesi, russ e sloven.
> >
> > ILa uses three source languages against eleven other languages.
> And, thus, instrument in
> > usage is the most international form, and that is what ILe is
> based on, whereas ILa is based
> > on "least" internationality, frankly. Three to eleven in favor of
> Interlingue.
> >
> 
> No. The "-o" in "instrumento" has nothing to do with the existence
> of
> the "-o" in Italian, Spanish and Portuguese. That similarity is an
> accident. The "-o" is there because the *common ancestor* for
> *all*
> modern variants contains it.

That has nothing to do with using instrument. It has to do with recognizeability to the most 
people.

Instrument generates in Occidental:
instrument
instrumentar
inatrumental
instrumentation
instrumentarium
etc


> 
> That common ancestor does not generate only a single word, but an
> entire *derivational series* or *word family* ("instrumental",
> "instrumentation", "instrumentista", etc.). In Interlingua we
> don't
> think of individual words, but of derivational series as the
> atomic
> unit for defining vocabulary prototypes.


I think then you may not understand at all how ILe developes words for regularity and 
naturalness and internationality.
> 
> > And, to return to instrumento, because of etymology alone is a
> return to ancient arcaismes
> > which ILa is loaded with, no?
> >
> 
> I wouldn't call it an "ancient arcaism" if it exists in modern
> languages spoken nowadays by hundreds of millions (Portuguese, for
> instance, contains the word "instrumento").

That is why instrument is included by de Wahl! He recognized that the -o was not relevant in 
choosing the word. You seem to forget that de Wahl used Spanish, French, Portuguese, 
English, German, and other languages to find these words. IALA went one step further than 
De Wahl did on this international usage of words. IALA under Gode took a step backward 
and gave you a regional language, at best.And, you verified it above.


> 
> The argument of "ancient arcaisms" would work if Interlingua had
> considered only individual words, not derivational series. For
> instance, which modern language contains the word "tempore"? None;
> only Latin, a dead language, contained the similar word
> "temporis".



> But *all* source languages contain that word latent in the group
> of
> modern words which belong to its derivational series: "temporal",
> "temporari", "temporalitate", "temporanee", "temporisar", etc.

Occidental uses tempor/e. So?
In the Radicarium there is this: tempore, -al, -ari, -an, con-an, inter-, durada mesurail, Italian 
Portuguese tempo, French temps, Spanish tiempo, English time...

So, how did he get them without knowing the ILa methode? 



> 
> The derivational series are always present in source languages,
> albeit
> in an irregular form (like in Portuguese, "rainha" X "real", or in
> English, "queen" X "royal"), while in Interlingua the connection
> between the words of the derivational series is made explicit
> ("regina", "regal", "rege", "reger", "regimento", "regula",
> "regular",
> "regime", "regno", etc).

Regime, etc. is also found in Occ. Regiment also. You are basically describing Occidental 
method for word finding. This is one of the reasons I said it appears ILa is a rip-off of 
Occidental. One of several things.

> 
> {Maybe even "region" and "registro" have some etymological link to
> that derivational series.}
> 
> {The regularity inside the derivational series shows a sample of
> the
> propedeutic potential of the Interlingua vocabulary; how could a
> Portuguese speaker know that "rainha" ([en] "queen") and "regra"
> ([en]
> "rule") are so deeply related? It is made explicit when we see the
> words [ia] "regina" and [ia] "regula". :) }


You have just promoted Occidental. All that and more was taken into account by de Wahl.

Thank you.


> 
> Antonielly Garcia Rodrigues

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