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AUXLANG  April 2007, Week 1

AUXLANG April 2007, Week 1

Subject:

Re: Neo Patwa blog

From:

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Reply-To:

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Date:

Sun, 1 Apr 2007 23:06:36 -0400

Content-Type:

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Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (178 lines)

li [Jens Wilkinson] mi tulis la
> > --- "Donald J. HARLOW" <[log in to unmask]>
> > wrote:
> > 
> > > A couple of notes on phonology of Neo Patwa:
> > 
> > > (1) Chinese, with around a fifth of the world's
> > > speakers, does not 
> > > make the P/B, K/G or T/D distinctions; instead it
> > > distinguishes on 
> > > aspiration rather than voicing. 
> > 
> > Don, thanks for the critiques, and I'll see if I can
> > come up with some explanations. First, you're right
> > about the aspiration/voicing problem. To be honest,
> > I
> > half believe that it would be best for an IAL to do
> > away with the distinction altogether, i.e. only have
> > one series. So no B at all, just P, K and T. The
> > only
> > reason I haven't done that in NP is that I've had
> > people tell me that "panana" sounds silly. And this
> > becomes a more general philosophical point, but I do
> > plan to have the language change based on usage, so
> > the B, G, and D may disappear. 

I've notice a problem with a phonology that's too minimal.  Part
of it is the "panana" issue you mentioned, but also that words
become too bland and shapeless without as many distinguishing
factors.  So I figured a way to deal with such a situation.
Have the voiced-devoiced distinction but group them (and other
similar sounding phonemes) together into a family of sounds and
keep them separated when creating vocabulary.  This way if you
have "banana", you can eliminate "panana" (and maybe even
"vanana") as possible words in the future.  There's no need to
just restrict this to voiced/unvoiced either.  It can be used
with R/L and possibly even other commonly confused sounds like
V/W, V/B and P/F.



> > > (2) While the H sound is not as rare as some would
> > > have it, it 
> > > doesn't exist in either of the world's two major
> > > languages, Chinese 
> > > and English (unless, of course, one counts lowland
> > > Scots as a dialect 
> > > of English, which the English do but the Scottish
> > > don't). 
> > 
> > In this case, there is only one sound, and though I
> > suggest pronouncing it like the Scottish "ch", it is
> > fine if people use an "h" sound like in English or
> > Chinese (actually, I think the Chinese is a little
> > bit
> > harder than English). The reason I recommend using
> > something like a velar fricative is that if you just
> > have the glottal fricative like in English, people
> > (for example, French and Jamaicans as well as
> > speakers
> > of some dialects of English) will tend to drop it. 

/x/ is a good choice as there are other sounds that approximate
it well like /C/ and /h/. 

> I agree with the justification, but not everyone
> > > will. Again, the 
> > > tapped/trilled R is _not_ common across languages
> > > (and, again, it 
> > > isn't found in either English or Chinese, which
> > > together account for 
> > > perhaps 30% of the people in the world).
> > 
> > Actually, I have eliminated the R from the
> > phonology.
> > This is a problem of my organization of the
> > documents...

I see no problem with "R" depending on which one.  I do think
the tapped /r/ isn't the best idea because it can sound too much
like /d/, and the trilled version is likely to be a problem for
many.  Something like the Japanese or Chinese /r/ could work
well with the English version as an alternate.    If you're
concered with the R/L problem, then consider my idea about
grouping them together in an exclusive relationship when
handling the lexicon.

> > > This implies that you can't easily have a word
> > > formation system where 
> > > words can be conjoined at double vowels. I am
> > > presuming that Neo 
> > > Patwa is not going to have a word formation system
> > > in the sense that 
> > > Esperanto, for instance, does, but the same
> > problem
> > > is going to occur 
> > > at points where a word starting with a vowel
> > follows
> > > a word ending 
> > > with a vowel. 
> > 
> > It's an important question, because Neo Patwa has a
> > system of word formation that is similar in some
> > ways
> > to Esperanto. Not with the suffixes, but a lot of
> > compounding. So "tomorrow" will be "pili-din"
> > (next-day), for example. So that problem will come
> > up.
> > Although I know this leads to irregularities, I
> > think
> > that it may be best to accept two vowels becoming
> > one
> > in that case. The other option is to recommend
> > putting
> > a glottal stop in between. 

An empenthetic, whether it be [?], [h], or whatever, is also a
good idea, just make sure the learning materials clarify that
separation or your likely to have run-together vowels like
Spanish.




> > > ...
> > > from Tok Pisin or 
> > > some similar tongue? I'd tend to omit it (for
> > > simplicity) and simply 
> > > show "wan baci, do baci, san baci ..."
> > 
> > I understand that, and that's been suggested to me
> > by
> > somebody else as well. It is true that it comes from
> > Tok Pisin, or more generally, Asian contact
> > languages.
> > In Chinese Pidgin English, apparently they said "one
> > piecee man". The justification I have for it (maybe
> > not significant) is that it's easy under this system
> > to make the distinction between "one month"
> > (wan-pela
> > luna" and "January" (wan-luna). A compound word
> > using
> > numbers can be different from the noun with a
> > counter
> > in front of it. But if it appears redundant and
> > speakers do it they way you suggested, I'll be happy
> > with that as well. 

The measure words do occur in a lot of asian languages like
Chinese and Indonesian, but if you are only going to have one,
then it's really easier to just eliminate it.  Or have a
structure where they can optionally be used so it's possible to
say "10 sheep" but also "10 head of sheep".  Remember that
measure words do server some function as in "ten meters of rope"
vs just "ten ropes" (= "ten pieces of rope").


> > > ...
> > Yes, you are right about the counting system, and
> > thanks for the suggestion about not omitting the
> > "wan". I think you're probably right, that for
> > consistency it's better to include it. Again, if
> > users
> > start omitting it in practice, that is just a signal
> > that it is probably redundant, and can be dropped. 

It may just be best to recommend using the "wan" and not require
it.  Does it really matter much whether someone says "million"
or "one million?"   Yes, and no.  Technically they are the same
thing but adding the "one" seems to put more emphasis on it, at
least in English.

BTW: Jens, do you have a mailing list or group or something
besides the blog?  I'd like to keep up to date on it, but it's
easier with e-mails flowing into my box than having to check a
website all the time.  I've been following several projects
simultaneously mostly through Yahoo groups.

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April 2001, Week 1
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March 2001, Week 1
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February 2001, Week 1
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January 2001, Week 2
January 2001, Week 1
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December 2000, Week 4
December 2000, Week 3
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December 2000, Week 1
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November 2000, Week 3
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November 2000, Week 1
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April 2000, Week 5
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April 2000, Week 3
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February 1999, Week 5
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February 1999, Week 1
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December 1998, Week 5
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December 1997, Week 5
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