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AUXLANG  May 2007, Week 4

AUXLANG May 2007, Week 4

Subject:

Re: WAL Marketing (< Wikipedia in Planned Languages)

From:

Jens Wilkinson <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

International Auxiliary Languages <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Sun, 27 May 2007 21:56:30 -0700

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (139 lines)

--- "Donald J. HARLOW" <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

>o, for instance, the Esperanto "iros" (will go) is 
>inflected, at least in this list, while the English
"will go" is 
>analytical, at least in this list. And, since
inflection is 
>*naughty*, "iros" must be more difficult to use than
"will go" 
>(despite the fact that the -os morpheme is easily
learned and easily 
>usable, while even native speakers have problems with
the two future 
>morphemes "shall" and "will"). (*)

I think that inflection is only "naughty" in my
opinion (and maybe in that of a few others). And yes,
for me, "iros" is "naughty" whereas "will go" is not.
And this may not be very convincing, but it comes down
to this: I see a word "iridanto" or something like
that in an Esperanto text (it could be Italian or
Russian or Spanish for that matter) and I look it up
in the dictionary, and I *can't find it.* I have to go
through a thought process and remember, right, the
-anto is actually a special thing added to a verb that
makes it passive or some such thing. In Chinese that
doesn't happen. If I see "ching" in a word, I can look
it up (as long as I can read the character) and find
out what it means. So speaking somewhat simplistically
(languages are never pure anything), with Chinese I
can to a great extent figure out what something is
saying with a dictionary and some basic knowledge
(like that it's SOV, that adjectives come before
nouns, etc.) Whereas with a language like English you
get a word like "eaten", and probably won't find it in
the dictionary, so you have to know that you put an
"-en" at the end of a verb to make it into some
"participle" or another, whatever that means. And I'm
not talking about the fact that English is irregular.
Even with regularities, you still have to known a
number of things to be able to find words.  


>I'm not arguing that a vocabulary 
>taken from a single language or from a particular
group of languages 
>is, in and of itself, in any way inferior to a
vocabulary randomly 
>selected from global sources; I'm simply arguing that
it is not, in 
>and of itself, in any way _superior_ to such a
vocabulary. Six of 
>one, half a dozen of the other.

With regard to learnability, I am completely in
agreement with you on this point. I don't see any
reason to favor one over the other. 
>
>Finally, a word on neutrality, which is often quoted,
by proponents 
>of this or that planned language, as one of its
"advantages". Namely: 
>Nobody cares. Not any more, at any rate. 

Here I don't agree. You mentioned earlier the idea of
ideology: learn Esperanto and help create world peace!
I think that was an effective thing to some extent,
and I think part of the reason that Esperanto has more
speakers than other IALs born in the same age is
because of its association with internationalist
activism. But that is just my own hypothesis; what do
you think? 

The thing is, though, that part of the "pitch" of Neo
Patwa has something to do with multiculturalism.
"Speak Neo Patwa, and never feel that there are
superior and inferior cultures; all human cultures are
worth borrowing from." Same with the gender thing.
"Speak Neo Patwa, a language that doesn't assume
maleness." But you are right that those are pretty
ideological things, and maybe nobody cares all that
much. People I talk to do seem to care somewhat, but
it may be that there is a selection bias (i.e., I'm
talking to *my* friends). :-)


>pinyin seriously for anything other than impressing
Westerners, such 
>common terms as "nu"ren", "nimen" and "wode" might
start people on 
>this list taking the term "agglutinative" seriously
... ;-)

Of those three examples, the second is the only one
that seems suspect to me. The first seems clearly to
be a compound. The third is just a possessive
particle, or a postposition. "Wo de" would be a better
way to write it, IMO. The "men", maybe. But that kind
of form is not common in Chinese.  

>
>(****) You may find many people who claim to care,
most of whom, when 
>push comes to shove, will have no genuine problem
with regard to 
>neutrality about learning _any_ language (English in
China, for 
>instance). 

Maybe. But I care. I don't mind at all learning
Chinese to communicate with Chinese people. I find it
the most natural thing in the world, and don't have
problems with exceptions (I mean, I have "problems"
with them, but I don't have any problem with them
being allowed to exist). Even the cases in Russian are
acceptable to me, if the Russians want to use them.
I'll learn their language their way. *But*, if Chinese
becomes the basis for an international language, and
they expect the whole world to use it, then the
neutrality will become an issue for me. If they expect
the whole world to start using a different term for
"big sister" and "little sister" just because they do
it, then I would abandon that IAL and try for another.


But clearly I'm more opinionated than many people
about this. I make a pretty clear distinction between
my expectations of a national langauge and of an IAL.
I'm sure that most people don't have this kind of
position. 

Jens Wilkinson
Neo Patwa language: http://patwa.pbwiki.com


       
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