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AUXLANG  May 2007, Week 4

AUXLANG May 2007, Week 4

Subject:

Re: Derivations and algorithms

From:

"Donald J. HARLOW" <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

International Auxiliary Languages <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Wed, 23 May 2007 08:10:22 -0700

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (155 lines)

Je 10.20 ptm 2007.05.22, Steve RICE skribis

>This is why he makes the statement (which I consider silly, false, 
>and factually
>suicidal to his argument):
>
>Pro appreciar le signification de iste aspecto - i. e. del aspecto 
>sociologic del
>question sub discussion - nos debe solmente considerar que esperanto per
>exemplo non esseva, le die de su prime publication, un lingua 
>international del
>toto.

I can't disagree with Gode here. I don't think Zamenhof, on July 26, 
1887, would have disagreed, either. "Por ke lingvo estu internacia, 
ne suficxas nomi gxin tia."

>Illo esseva non mesmo un lingua

This is more doubtful.

>sed solmente un projecto de lingua, un
>projecto de lingua international, proque illo non habeva lo que es le plus
>importante characteristica de omne lingua, international o altere: illo non
>habeva un communitate lingual.

Which, as far as I can tell, Gode himself never worked hard at 
developing for Interlingua, referring to those who did as "Esperantists".

>In un certe senso le historia de esperanto non
>es le historia de un lingua sed le historia del effortio (a vices 
>heroic e quasi
>semper fanatic) de equipar un lingua con un communitate lingual.

Zamenhof worked hard at this, but it is not clear that after his time 
any great effort has been put into "equipar [Esperanto] con un 
communitate lingual" -- that has just happened, based on the earlier 
community that Zamenhof developed. In fact, it could be said that by 
the mid-1890s it was unnecessary to make such an effort, either 
"heroic" or "fanatic".

>[Cue Mr. Harlow]

I'm not sure what to say about this. From a purely objective point of 
view, I don't disagree with everything Gode says here (the importance 
of a speaking community for an IAL is fairly obvious to me), but I 
get the impression, partly based on other things he's written, that 
he's being snide. After all, though he protested more than once that 
Interlingua and Esperanto were not in competition, he seemed never to 
pass up a chance to diss Esperanto ("When, a moment ago, I coupled 
Esperanto with Pig Latin I did not do so because I regard Pig Latin 
as contemptible ..." From his Five Theses).

I worried this over in my head for half the night last night, 
wondering what I should reply to "Cue Mr. Harlow", and I finally 
encountered one of those epiphanies that sometimes hit you about the 
time you're ready to drowse off. And this was that Gode didn't just 
create a language. What Gode created, of equal or perhaps greater 
importance to him, was a strategy for promoting that language. And it 
seems quite possible to me that the form of the language was to a 
great extent determined by that strategy, which did not necessarily 
involve a speaking community.

After some of our discussions yesterday, the old question (as an 
example) arises: Why do I have to say "alpestre, lacustre, hippic" 
where the endings all mean pretty much the same thing, instead of, 
for instance "alpic, lacestre (OK, there's an 
orthographic-phonological problem here), hippustre"? Gode, after all, 
had the examples of Esperanto and Ido before him (both of which, 
especially Esperanto, had been heavily involved with IALA since its 
beginnings), with Esperanto's -a (which, I gather, Ido splits into -a 
and -ala, which is not much more difficult, especially since the 
rules for which to use are well-defined), and he could not have 
failed to see that having to memorize the appropriate adjectival 
ending for each given noun was a considerably greater barrier to 
relatively easy learnability than a standard adjectival ending which 
one can apply to all nouns. (*) The only possible answer takes us 
back to a situation which I've mentioned before (and occasionally 
been excoriated for doing so): that Gode never intended for 
Interlingua to be used _actively_ by the _hoi polloi_, but intended 
for it to be used _passively_ by a select group of people, to wit 
educated Europeans and particularly those involved with the sciences. 
More specifically, his strategy -- and I think that this has been 
fairly explicit over the years -- was to promote Interlingua as an 
international language for use in scientific papers, either for 
abstracts or for complete texts. This, I think, is the reason for 
Gode's comment to Floyd Hardin (Dec. 10, 1962) that "[a]s a matter of 
fact I was motivated in challenging Dr. Lapenna exclusively by the 
hope that a debate between him and me would result ... in people ... 
finally understanding that Interlingua and Esperanto cannot be 
compared, and that the areas in which they can conceivably collide 
are truly insignificant." (**)

Such a strategy, of course, has no need for a genuine speaking 
community (though it does require at least a few active speakers to 
provide Interlingua texts and abstracts), and in fact Gode would have 
been perfectly justified (based perhaps on his view of the Esperanto 
speaking community) in presuming that such a community might do more 
harm than good, by drawing off talent from the genuine strategy of 
promoting Interlingua among non-Interlingua-speaking scientists.

Despite the best efforts of Gode and others (Forrest Cleveland, for 
instance, and later Frank Esterhill) the strategy failed. In fact, if 
we go back to Esterhill's "Verbatim" article and his critique of UMI 
( http://www.interlingua.org ), we can see that when Esterhill 
(perhaps with somewhat of an attitude of sour grapes) says that 
Interlingua has failed and is no longer relevant, he is really saying 
that Gode's strategy for Interlingua, later that of the Interlingua 
Institute, has failed, not that the language itself has failed -- 
unless, of course, one identifies the language with the strategy.

This is one of the major advantages of having a speaking community -- 
you will end up with a plethora of different strategies. Most of them 
will fail, too, but at least they will get tried. Maybe, ultimately, 
one will succeed. (***) For this reason, though I hold little hope 
for Interlingua (again, it is not that easy to learn to use 
actively), if it does eventually attain any great degree of success, 
that success is more likely to come from the community of 
"Esperantists" gathered loosely around UMI than it ever was from the 
more purist Interlingua Institute with its relatively narrow and 
unitary view, apparently inherited from Gode, of the strategy to be 
pursued in promoting Interlingua.

---

(*) This causes precisely as much of a burden on the student as the 
introduction of grammatical gender does -- and _everybody_ agrees 
that grammatical gender in a planned language is a Bad Thing.

(**) Lapenna, of course, was not about to stipulate that there was no 
place for Esperanto in the sciences, and I think it's been 
demonstrated -- for instance, by my occasional astronomical postings 
in this list -- that Esperanto is as suitable for scientific 
description as any other language, including Interlingua.

(***) As an ongoing for-instance: Leo Cooman and a small group of 
people are using Esperanto to multilingualize the blog of European 
Commissioner Margot Wallstrom, whose exclusive use of English has 
annoyed them. At the same time, Angela Tellier and a group of people 
in England have launched the program "Springboard to Languages" whose 
aim is to get Esperanto into British schools as a propaedeutic 
language. And I spent much of the afternoon and early evening 
yesterday translating the General Assembly's resolution on 
multilingualism into Esperanto for use by anybody who knows how to 
use it. Without a speaking community, none of this would be 
happening. All three of the mentioned "strategies" may fail to show 
significant results; without a speaking community, they wouldn't even be tried.


-- Don HARLOW
http://www.webcom.com/~donh/don/don.html
Opinions (in English): http://www.harlows.org/don/opinions/
Esperanto (in English): http://www.harlows.org/don/esperanto/
Literaturo (Esperante): http://donh.best.vwh.net/Esperanto/Literaturo

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December 2000, Week 5
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