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CONLANG Home

CONLANG Home

CONLANG  July 2007, Week 1

CONLANG July 2007, Week 1

Subject:

Re: Poll: What looks best?

From:

R A Brown <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Fri, 6 Jul 2007 10:07:06 +0100

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (90 lines)

T. A. McLeay wrote:
> taliesin the storyteller wrote:
> ...
> 
>>maгavvel г kanra гāen oгamigh гu khaгa гetuaþ гeìes
>  
> I hate to pick a loser, but I think this one here is miles ahead of the
> competition. It looks r-ish but represents a velar letter: Perfect for
> the job. The leader of the pack looks like it should represent a palatal
> letter ... absolutely the last choice in my books.

Yes, I agree with Tristan that the current leader, r-hac(z)ek/ r-caron 
or whatever else one wants to call it, suggests a _palatal_ sound. 
That's the way it's used, isn't it?

As for the others:
Herman Miller wrote:
 > taliesin the storyteller wrote:
 >
 >> The quest to replace H continueth! Here's a test-sentence:
[snip]
 >> And here are the candidates:
 >>
 >> maHavvel H kanra Hāen oHamigh Hu khaHa Hetuaþ Heìes
 >> mařavvel ř kanra řāen ořamigh řu khařa řetuaþ řeìes
 >> maяavvel я kanra яāen oяamigh яu khaяa яetuaþ яeìes
 >> maħavvel ħ kanra ħāen oħamigh ħu khaħa ħetuaþ ħeìes
 >> maгavvel г kanra гāen oгamigh гu khaгa гetuaþ гeìes
 >
 > I have a tendency to read something like "Toys Я Us" as "Toys [ja]
 > Us"...

Yep - even stuck into a string of Roman letters, those of us familiar 
with Cyrillic will recognize Я as /ja/. If a letter is to be taken from 
Cyrillic, Greek or some other alphabet then it ought IMO to retain some 
associated value. Я used to denote a _trill_ (beginning at the back of 
the tongue and, presumably, progressing along it to the tip)*, does not 
do that.

It may be objected that Я in this case is not the Cyrillic letter, but 
reversed R. it ain't. A reversed R must surely have reversed-r as its 
lower case form. Using Я as a lower case letter sure looks like a 
Cyrillic borrowing.

 >The first one suggests something like [χ] or [ħ]. The fourth one
 > is even more likely to end up as [ħ].

Agreed - in any case taliesin wants to replace H. But replacing it by ħ 
does not suggest the correct sound.

 >The last one almost looks too much like a regular "r" (compare "kanra" 
and "гāen").

But the sound is a trill, so looking like regular "r" should IMO be a 
plus. I have compared "kanra"and "гāen" and I can spot the difference 
between the two letters   :)

Of the choices offered, I have to agree with Tristan that the last one 
is IMO the best (or maybe I should say least objectionable   ;)

But if one wants a symbol that is r-like but more easily distinguished 
from lowercase -r_ than г is, then one might choose U+027D ('LATIN SMALL 
LETTER R HOOK'), cf.
maɽavvel ɽ kanra ɽāen oɽamigh ɽu khaɽa ɽetuaþ ɽeìes

*But I have some problem with taliesin's description of the sound:
"The letter in question marks a sound that starts off as a velar
trill (or one of its many raspy replacements) and turns into an
alveolar trill."

According to the IPA chart, a velar trill is not a possible sound (the 
square is not left empty, it is clearly blacked out). So what are the 
'many raspy replacements'?

The uvular trill has a symbol and is attested in natlangs (one finds it, 
e.g. used by some North Walian speakers), and I have no difficulty in 
making such a trill. A pharyngeal trill is also possible. As the 
replacement is described as raspy are we dealing here with an uvular or 
pharyngeal trill onset, or what?

-- 
Ray
==================================
[log in to unmask]
http://www.carolandray.plus.com
==================================
Nid rhy hen neb i ddysgu.
There's none too old to learn.
[WELSH PROVERB]

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