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CONLANG Home

CONLANG Home

CONLANG  July 2007, Week 1

CONLANG July 2007, Week 1

Subject:

Re: No Vowels?

From:

R A Brown <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Mon, 2 Jul 2007 07:27:29 +0100

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (115 lines)

[log in to unmask] wrote:
> At http://www.rickharrison.com/language/plan_b.html
> 
> Jeff Prothero offers this idea:
> 
> We adopt the alphabet BCDF GHJK LMNP STVZ.  

Yes, but this is surely confusing the meanings of "vowel". It is true 
that "Plan B" is written only with symbols conventionally called 
'consonants', but the language most definitely has both phonetic and 
phonemic vowels, as I have shown on
http://www.carolandray.plus.com/Loglang/PhonAndOrthog.html

The language *simply is not spelled phonemically*
[snip]
> By providing both a vowel and a consonant
> pronunciation for each letter, and using
> them alternately, we can pronounce arbitrary
> strings of letters without difficulty.  

As Jacques Guy observes in his satirical response "Plan C":
{quote}
And I, poor sod, who thought a strict CV(V) language would do it!"
{/quote}
See:
http://web.archive.org/web/20010616113550/http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/Garden/7676/l-humor.html

Indeed, as I showed in a mail to this list, the sixteen bit patterns of 
"Plan B" could well have been mapped to simple CV syllables. This would 
mean that each bit pattern had only *one* pronunciation, and the written 
representation of it would also have one pronunciation, see:
http://listserv.brown.edu/archives/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0509c&L=conlang&P=11108

Indeed, Jörg Riemeier has outlined an engelang using just this proposed 
syllabary, see:
http://wiki.frath.net/X-1

I have since myself suggested a modification of this as you will see if 
you read my webpage quoted above.

What Jeff Prothero did in "Plan B" was to have a system whereby each 
pattern of four bits from 0 to F has two pronunciations - one 
consonantal, the other vocalic - according to whether the bit pattern 
occurs in an odd or even position. The fact that he chose to map each 
bit pattern to a letter of the Roman alphabet that is normally used to 
represent consonants has no relevance as to whether "Plan B" has either 
phonetic and/or phonemic vowels.
-----------------------------------

[log in to unmask] wrote:
 > In a message dated 6/30/2007 4:16:46 AM Central Daylight Time,
 > [log in to unmask] writes:
 >
 >>
 >>  phonemes > phonetic realization
 >>  /tdzn/ > [tadzana]
 >>  /ktds/ > [katdasa]
 >>  /hrt/ > [harta]
 >>
 >>The vowel phones are entirely predictable from knowing just the
 >>consonant phonemes, which leads me to think that the vowels themselves
 >>are not phonetic.
 >
 > Is [a] the only vowel used?

It certainly looks like it from the examples given, doesn't it?

If [a] is the only vowel and it is entirely predictable the, yes, it 
does not have _phonemic_ status.

But, as the square brackets used correctly by both Joseph Fatula & Stevo 
show, [a] does (indeed must) have _phonetic_ status, otherwise you 
wouldn't hear it       :)

--------------------------

And Rosta wrote:
 > Joseph Fatula, On 30/06/2007 10:06:
[snip]
 >> The vowel phones are entirely predictable from knowing just the
 >> consonant phonemes, which leads me to think that the vowels themselves
 >> are not phonetic.  Am I analyzing this correctly?  It just seems too
 >> bizarre, and yet I can't think of a good reason to claim that vowels
 >> are phonetic in this language.
 >
 >
 > It's not that bizarre, and indeed such an analysis has been offered for
 > some Caucasian lgs.

Surely not! I have come across analyses of Caucasian languages which 
postulate no _phonemic_ vowels; indeed, I have met analyses of PIE that 
postulate no phonemic vowels.

But no phonetic vowels? Is such a beast possible?

It would seem to me that Joseph is wondering if his language has no 
phonemic vowels, surely.

 > As for whether the analysis is correct, you haven't given enough data.

Indeed not - but the examples given do suggest it is a possibility. But:
1. Is [a] the only vowel phone (i.e. phonetic vowel) in the language?
2. If the vowel phones are entirely predictable from knowing the 
consonant phonemes, what are the rules?

-- 
Ray
==================================
[log in to unmask]
http://www.carolandray.plus.com
==================================
Nid rhy hen neb i ddysgu.
There's none too old to learn.
[WELSH PROVERB]

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