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AUXLANG  July 2007, Week 2

AUXLANG July 2007, Week 2

Subject:

Re: Toki Pona's coming back, indefence of European based Ials

From:

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Reply-To:

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Date:

Wed, 11 Jul 2007 03:50:26 -0400

Content-Type:

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Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (127 lines)

> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Kjell Rehnström

> The notorious Euroclones are probably the way to solve the  problem
of an
> auxiliary language to be used by those who want to. It cannot  be my
task
> to tell the Chinese or the Arab that "you should not use the
language I
> propose, 'cause this language is intendet for Western  speakers
only. As
> you don't have the necessary background, don't you even dream  of
trying
> to learn My Language. My take is: I think Occidental is the  best we
have
> for the time being. And if you feel like using it, I shall do  what
I can
> to help you. Occidental can be your bridge to the Europhones.  Who
am I
> to deny you that?

Euroclones were created with the intent of WAL use.  I'm just saying I
don't believe in them for such use.  If someone wants to use them,
that's fine.  I just think the multiculture approach that a lot of the
new projects use is a far better alternative than ramming yet another
piece of Western culture down the throats of the world at large.

I have virtually no interest in using Occidental.  I really don't need
a bridge to Europhones either.  I have enough knowledge already of
European languages to write back and forth (with great help from
dictionaries) just as well as I could using the Euroclone-du-jour.
And when all else fails, there's the Europanto approach.

> And if you think Western Languages stink, I am very sorry to  hear
that,
> but then I cannot help you. Try then to make a language like  you
would
> like it to be. This simply isn't my place in life.

That was Andrew's statement, not mine.

I don't have anything against European languages.  In fact, I happen
to like many of them.  I just don't support the idea of trying to pass
off a European-biased language as a "world" language.

> The best European auxiliary language will be the one that can be
easier
> than English and provide a lot of lexical bonuses.
>
> Cordial is not just English or French, nocturne is not just French,
the
> word exists in Swedish as well, and nocturne comes from "noct". A
friend
> of mine has a slepping pill called Stillnoct, those who made it were

> conscious of how the international lexicon works.

Sometimes the marketeers don't come up with good product names.  I'd
like to see them try and sell Sierra Mist in Germany.

> Diurne is an international word too, that gives "jornalist" etc. So
> there is a common vocabulary that we can take and build a common
> language from.

To some extent there are recognizable words, but there is still a bias
there.  I've noticed a few of these familiar Greco-Latin roots have
found their way into Slavic languages, but there are not many so these
words won't be of much use to a Russian or a Czech without a knowledge
of English, French or some other language. With that knowledge, he'll
no longer have much use for an auxlang anyway.

> So what we have are two ways: A European English is perhaps in the
> making. People here already use English in contacts with Germany and
not
> German as it was earlier. Young people in Poland and the Baltic
> countries already speak fairly good English, by my standards,
anyway,
> and the earlier you start instructing English the better it will be.

For better or worse, English is where everyone is heading, not just in
Europe, but all over.

> The problem with the auxiliary language as I see it lies in the
> necessity to acquire a usable vocabulary. In the countries were
English
> films and TV serials are shown with the original sound, people are
> learning ways of being happy, angry, cross, abusive, mean in
English.
> This is a part that the auxilinguas often miss, not that it doesn't
> exist in them, but that people haven't learnt the lexicon necessary.

That's one fault I've found in all the constructed languages.  There
is a serious lack (if not total absence) of available media, but then
again these things take time and resources to create.

> What speaks in favour of an IAL instead of the Pan-European English
that
> is slowly but steadily taking shape, is that those who have to start

> learning English in a rather adult age have gotten to work much more

> than the younger generation in order to get any results. I know
people
> in Latvia who are trying to learn English - they must have it in
order
> to get better jobs, and it is real hard for them. Here an IAL could
come
> in, but their disadvantage is that they are not ubiquitous as
English is.

But the current selections of constructed auxlangs aren't going to get
them a job, or much else regardless of how easy they are to learn.
English may be difficult, but it will get them access to the better
jobs, and give them the portability to travel just about anywhere.

> So the conclusion of all this ranting is that the IAL has got to be
> easier than English and provide some bonus effects that Englishh
doesn't
> have or else one has better forget about it and stick to English...

Unfortunately there are no tangible benfits or other benefits offered
that can even come close to English.  The conauxlang communities are
so small, that they must be grown before anything else can happen.  I
realistically do not expect any of them to rise up and become anything
much more than they are today.  100 years ago, I'm sure the idea
showed much more promise, but now the world has effectively made a WAL
choice, and that choice is English.

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