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CONLANG Home

CONLANG Home

CONLANG  July 2007, Week 2

CONLANG July 2007, Week 2

Subject:

Re: phonology of Plan B

From:

R A Brown <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Fri, 13 Jul 2007 08:19:54 +0100

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (176 lines)

Jörg Rhiemeier wrote:
> Hallo!
> 
> On Thu, 12 Jul 2007 10:32:30 +0100, R A Brown wrote:
[snip]
>>If we did not know the underlying structure and had only the spelling 
>>system given us, we would consider a system in which |s| is sometimes 
>>pronounced [s] and sometimes pronounced [raj] to be weird. It is only 
>>when we notice that this alternation is consistent and not random that 
>>we would realize that there was something underlying this pairing.
>  
> And this something is *not* a "phoneme".  In Greek (correct me if
> I am wrong, Ray) the accusative singular ending has two forms, namely
> -n and -a.  

Correct.

> Nevertheless, /n/ and /a/ are *completely different phonemes*.

Correct.

> It is just that this particular morpheme has two completely different
> *allomorphs* (diachronically, of course, they are connected, both
> descending from PIE *-m by regular sound changes).

Also correct. Yes, both are derived from PIE /m/. After a vowel the /m/ 
was not syllabic and, in ancient Greek, became /n/ in final position; 
but after a consonant the PIE /m/ was syllabic, i.e. [m=], and both 
syllabic [n=] and [m=] regularly became /a/ in ancient Greek.

I have genuinely no idea how this is viewed in generative phonology, but 
  in ancient (and modern) Greek itself, /a/ and /n/ are certainly 
distinct phonemes.

[snip]
>>I still hold that it is risible to analyze Plan B as having 16 phonemes. 
> 
> 
> I wouldn't say "risible"; I'd rather say "misleading".  

You are kinder than me   :)

It really does seem to me that if one arrives at a conclusion that has 
such phonetically disparate pairs of allophones as[E]~[b],  [ej]~[S], 
[I]~[d], [r\E]~[D], [r\I]~[n], [r\ej]~[m] etc., one should question 
whether what one is abstracting are phonemes at all.

> And's analysis
> is not entirely ludicrous; it's just that the term "phoneme" is poorly
> chosen.  In *one single aspect*, namely the role of fundamental building
> blocks of the language, the 16 bit quartets *are* "phonemes", 

On this I must disagree. This is giving "phoneme" a meaning which it 
does not normally have. A "phoneme" is normally understood to mean the 
minimal unit in the sound system of a language. I believe the term 
'phoneme' is, by extension, used to denote minimal units in signing 
languages (tho I may be wrong on this); if so, those using the term in 
that context understand what is meant.

But And, by quoting allophones in square brackets, has been using the 
term to refer to _sounds_, as such one would surely understand the term 
in its traditional sense.

Neither you, nor I nor And at all in disagreement about the 16 
bit-quartets (tho arguably one might hold that the bit itself, 0~1, is 
the _minimal_ underlying unit). None of us disagrees that these quartets 
are fundamental to the language.

The disagreement, which shows no signs of being resolves, is in the 
analysis of the spoken representation that Jeff Prothero happen to give 
to these quartets in his paper of May, 1990.

I have more than once point out that Jeff also wrote: "the particular 
letters and pronunciations chosen don't matter much." This statement in 
itself ought to cause us to wonder how meaningful it is to be talking 
about the _phonology_ of Plan B.

[snip]
>>Therefore, I now conclude that _both_ my analysis of Plan B as having 16 
>>consonant phonemes, eight vowel phonemes, and the 'glide' /r/ is 
>>mistaken, _and_ you analysis of 16-phonemes is equally mistaken. IMO we 
>>are both analyzing a chimera    ;)
> 
> 
> Yes.  And that's why this whole thread is running in circles, with
> the same arguments being exchanged over and over again.  We should
> agree that Plan B is fundamentally a language of bit quartets, and
> that any phonological analysis of it (in the traditional meaning of
> the term "phonology", of course) depends on arbitrary secondary
> factors and is thus *meaningless*.

Agreed. One can only discuss the merits of one particular way of mapping 
Plan B's quartets to human speech over another way of doing it. Plan B 
has a 'phonology' only in the sense in which English (or any other 
Natlang) has a bit-pattern representation. Its as tho you, I and And 
were arguing over the phonemic or graphemic inventory of EBCDIC or ASCII!

It has no meaning.

[snip]
>>The basic units of Plan B are the quartets of bits. One can discuss 
>>whether the ad_hoc system of mapping the bits to writing and to spoken 
>>sound is a sensible one or not, but to discuss the phonology of Plan B 
>>does not make much sense because, in the strict sense, it has no phonology.
> 
> 
> Yes.  Plan B has no phonology.  It *can* be represented by vowels
> and consonants, the same way natural languages can be encoded in bit
> streams, but the same way there are many different ways of encoding
> a particular natural language in a bit stream, there are many different
> ways of encoding Plan B in human speech sounds. 

Precisely - and what is the system over which we have been arguing?

The clearly ad_hoc system, in which he chose 16 letters normally used to 
denote consonants, given in Jeff's paper of May, 1990 depends upon:
- the traditional ordering of letters in the Roman alphabet;
- the normal consonant pronunciation of those letters in English, with 
the exception of |c| which is given the sound [S] (as in Ro, Lojban, and 
many Conlangs of American origin), |h| the sound [T] (a sound ' may have 
in Lojban] and |l| the sound [D] (presumably because keeping its 
tradition sound would otherwise have given rise the combination [lr].
- allotting vowel values, not by any scheme, other than that the second 
group of eight should be the same as the first, but prefixed with [r\]. 
The vowels are allotted simply from the American English pronunciations 
monosyllabic words beginning with the particular letter in question.

It does seem strange to me to hold that pairs of disparate consonants 
and vowels, assigned values in such an ad_hoc way, are then allophones 
of the same phoneme. Indeed, it does seem risible to me in that IMO it 
is meaningless.

To my mind the only meaningful discussion would be whether this is the 
best way to map quartets to spoken language or not. It seems to me quite 
clear from Jeff's paper that he was not exactly over enthusiastic about 
the scheme he outlined. It was surely just a ad_hoc scheme so that it 
could be pronounced.
[snip]
> 
>>       A phonological 
>>examination might be made when comparing different mappings of the its 
>>quartets to spoken form for human use, but that IMO is another matter.
> 
> 
> Yes.

Yep - and that IMO is the only valid discussion involving Plan B and 
phonology.
[snip]
>>
>>They do indeed. Also as I have shown, Plan B could have been implemented 
>>in such a way that they were no phonetically unrelated allomorphs.
> 
> Yes.  There is no "phonology of Plan B", as there is not "the bit stream
> representation of English"; 

AMEN! AMEN!

> there are only phonologies of particular
> spoken representations of Plan B.  Your system has a different phonology
> than Jeff's, and mine (X-1) yet another one.

Exactly so. In fact over the past two years, I come up with three 
different schemes for mapping Plan B's quartets to human speech (and 
writing). I have no doubt there are other ways in which it can be done.

-- 
Ray
==================================
[log in to unmask]
http://www.carolandray.plus.com
==================================
Nid rhy hen neb i ddysgu.
There's none too old to learn.
[WELSH PROVERB]

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December 2005, Week 4
December 2005, Week 3
December 2005, Week 2
December 2005, Week 1
November 2005, Week 5
November 2005, Week 4
November 2005, Week 3
November 2005, Week 2
November 2005, Week 1
October 2005, Week 5
October 2005, Week 4
October 2005, Week 3
October 2005, Week 2
October 2005, Week 1
September 2005, Week 5
September 2005, Week 4
September 2005, Week 3
September 2005, Week 2
September 2005, Week 1
August 2005, Week 5
August 2005, Week 4
August 2005, Week 3
August 2005, Week 2
August 2005, Week 1
July 2005, Week 5
July 2005, Week 4
July 2005, Week 3
July 2005, Week 2
July 2005, Week 1
June 2005, Week 5
June 2005, Week 4
June 2005, Week 3
June 2005, Week 2
June 2005, Week 1
May 2005, Week 5
May 2005, Week 4
May 2005, Week 3
May 2005, Week 2
May 2005, Week 1
April 2005, Week 5
April 2005, Week 4
April 2005, Week 3
April 2005, Week 2
April 2005, Week 1
March 2005, Week 5
March 2005, Week 4
March 2005, Week 3
March 2005, Week 2
March 2005, Week 1
February 2005, Week 4
February 2005, Week 3
February 2005, Week 2
February 2005, Week 1
January 2005, Week 5
January 2005, Week 4
January 2005, Week 3
January 2005, Week 2
January 2005, Week 1
December 2004, Week 5
December 2004, Week 4
December 2004, Week 3
December 2004, Week 2
December 2004, Week 1
November 2004, Week 5
November 2004, Week 4
November 2004, Week 3
November 2004, Week 2
November 2004, Week 1
October 2004, Week 5
October 2004, Week 4
October 2004, Week 3
October 2004, Week 2
October 2004, Week 1
September 2004, Week 5
September 2004, Week 4
September 2004, Week 3
September 2004, Week 2
September 2004, Week 1
August 2004, Week 5
August 2004, Week 4
August 2004, Week 3
August 2004, Week 2
August 2004, Week 1
July 2004, Week 5
July 2004, Week 4
July 2004, Week 3
July 2004, Week 2
July 2004, Week 1
June 2004, Week 5
June 2004, Week 4
June 2004, Week 3
June 2004, Week 2
June 2004, Week 1
May 2004, Week 5
May 2004, Week 4
May 2004, Week 3
May 2004, Week 2
May 2004, Week 1
April 2004, Week 5
April 2004, Week 4
April 2004, Week 3
April 2004, Week 2
April 2004, Week 1
March 2004, Week 5
March 2004, Week 4
March 2004, Week 3
March 2004, Week 2
March 2004, Week 1
February 2004, Week 5
February 2004, Week 4
February 2004, Week 3
February 2004, Week 2
February 2004, Week 1
January 2004, Week 5
January 2004, Week 4
January 2004, Week 3
January 2004, Week 2
January 2004, Week 1
December 2003, Week 5
December 2003, Week 4
December 2003, Week 3
December 2003, Week 2
December 2003, Week 1
November 2003, Week 5
November 2003, Week 4
November 2003, Week 3
November 2003, Week 2
November 2003, Week 1
October 2003, Week 5
October 2003, Week 4
October 2003, Week 3
October 2003, Week 2
October 2003, Week 1
September 2003, Week 5
September 2003, Week 4
September 2003, Week 3
September 2003, Week 2
September 2003, Week 1
August 2003, Week 5
August 2003, Week 4
August 2003, Week 3
August 2003, Week 2
August 2003, Week 1
July 2003, Week 5
July 2003, Week 4
July 2003, Week 3
July 2003, Week 2
July 2003, Week 1
June 2003, Week 5
June 2003, Week 4
June 2003, Week 3
June 2003, Week 2
June 2003, Week 1
May 2003, Week 5
May 2003, Week 4
May 2003, Week 3
May 2003, Week 2
May 2003, Week 1
April 2003, Week 5
April 2003, Week 4
April 2003, Week 3
April 2003, Week 2
April 2003, Week 1
March 2003, Week 5
March 2003, Week 4
March 2003, Week 3
March 2003, Week 2
March 2003, Week 1
February 2003, Week 4
February 2003, Week 3
February 2003, Week 2
February 2003, Week 1
January 2003, Week 5
January 2003, Week 4
January 2003, Week 3
January 2003, Week 2
January 2003, Week 1
December 2002, Week 5
December 2002, Week 4
December 2002, Week 3
December 2002, Week 2
December 2002, Week 1
November 2002, Week 5
November 2002, Week 4
November 2002, Week 3
November 2002, Week 2
November 2002, Week 1
October 2002, Week 5
October 2002, Week 4
October 2002, Week 3
October 2002, Week 2
October 2002, Week 1
September 2002, Week 5
September 2002, Week 4
September 2002, Week 3
September 2002, Week 2
September 2002, Week 1
August 2002, Week 5
August 2002, Week 4
August 2002, Week 3
August 2002, Week 2
August 2002, Week 1
July 2002, Week 5
July 2002, Week 4
July 2002, Week 3
July 2002, Week 2
July 2002, Week 1
June 2002, Week 5
June 2002, Week 4
June 2002, Week 3
June 2002, Week 2
June 2002, Week 1
May 2002, Week 5
May 2002, Week 4
May 2002, Week 3
May 2002, Week 2
May 2002, Week 1
April 2002, Week 5
April 2002, Week 4
April 2002, Week 3
April 2002, Week 2
April 2002, Week 1
March 2002, Week 5
March 2002, Week 4
March 2002, Week 3
March 2002, Week 2
March 2002, Week 1
February 2002, Week 4
February 2002, Week 3
February 2002, Week 2
February 2002, Week 1
January 2002, Week 5
January 2002, Week 4
January 2002, Week 3
January 2002, Week 2
January 2002, Week 1
December 2001, Week 5
December 2001, Week 4
December 2001, Week 3
December 2001, Week 2
December 2001, Week 1
November 2001, Week 5
November 2001, Week 4
November 2001, Week 3
November 2001, Week 2
November 2001, Week 1
October 2001, Week 5
October 2001, Week 4
October 2001, Week 3
October 2001, Week 2
October 2001, Week 1
September 2001, Week 5
September 2001, Week 4
September 2001, Week 3
September 2001, Week 2
September 2001, Week 1
August 2001, Week 5
August 2001, Week 4
August 2001, Week 3
August 2001, Week 2
August 2001, Week 1
July 2001, Week 5
July 2001, Week 4
July 2001, Week 3
July 2001, Week 2
July 2001, Week 1
June 2001, Week 5
June 2001, Week 4
June 2001, Week 3
June 2001, Week 2
June 2001, Week 1
May 2001, Week 5
May 2001, Week 4
May 2001, Week 3
May 2001, Week 2
May 2001, Week 1
April 2001, Week 5
April 2001, Week 4
April 2001, Week 3
April 2001, Week 2
April 2001, Week 1
March 2001, Week 5
March 2001, Week 4
March 2001, Week 3
March 2001, Week 2
March 2001, Week 1
February 2001, Week 4
February 2001, Week 3
February 2001, Week 2
February 2001, Week 1
January 2001, Week 5
January 2001, Week 4
January 2001, Week 3
January 2001, Week 2
January 2001, Week 1
December 2000, Week 5
December 2000, Week 4
December 2000, Week 3
December 2000, Week 2
December 2000, Week 1
November 2000, Week 5
November 2000, Week 4
November 2000, Week 3
November 2000, Week 2
November 2000, Week 1
October 2000, Week 5
October 2000, Week 4
October 2000, Week 3
October 2000, Week 2
October 2000, Week 1
September 2000, Week 5
September 2000, Week 4
September 2000, Week 3
September 2000, Week 2
September 2000, Week 1
August 2000, Week 5
August 2000, Week 4
August 2000, Week 3
August 2000, Week 2
August 2000, Week 1
July 2000, Week 5
July 2000, Week 4
July 2000, Week 3
July 2000, Week 2
July 2000, Week 1
June 2000, Week 5
June 2000, Week 4
June 2000, Week 3
June 2000, Week 2
June 2000, Week 1
May 2000, Week 5
May 2000, Week 4
May 2000, Week 3
May 2000, Week 2
May 2000, Week 1
April 2000, Week 5
April 2000, Week 4
April 2000, Week 3
April 2000, Week 2
April 2000, Week 1
March 2000, Week 5
March 2000, Week 4
March 2000, Week 3
March 2000, Week 2
March 2000, Week 1
February 2000, Week 5
February 2000, Week 4
February 2000, Week 3
February 2000, Week 2
February 2000, Week 1
January 2000, Week 5
January 2000, Week 4
January 2000, Week 3
January 2000, Week 2
January 2000, Week 1
December 1999, Week 5
December 1999, Week 4
December 1999, Week 3
December 1999, Week 2
December 1999, Week 1
November 1999, Week 5
November 1999, Week 4
November 1999, Week 3
November 1999, Week 2
November 1999, Week 1
October 1999, Week 5
October 1999, Week 4
October 1999, Week 3
October 1999, Week 2
October 1999, Week 1
September 1999, Week 5
September 1999, Week 4
September 1999, Week 3
September 1999, Week 2
September 1999, Week 1
August 1999, Week 5
August 1999, Week 4
August 1999, Week 3
August 1999, Week 2
August 1999, Week 1
July 1999, Week 5
July 1999, Week 4
July 1999, Week 3
July 1999, Week 2
July 1999, Week 1
June 1999, Week 5
June 1999, Week 4
June 1999, Week 3
June 1999, Week 2
June 1999, Week 1
May 1999, Week 5
May 1999, Week 4
May 1999, Week 3
May 1999, Week 2
May 1999, Week 1
April 1999, Week 5
April 1999, Week 4
April 1999, Week 3
April 1999, Week 2
April 1999, Week 1
March 1999, Week 5
March 1999, Week 4
March 1999, Week 3
March 1999, Week 2
March 1999, Week 1
February 1999, Week 5
February 1999, Week 4
February 1999, Week 3
February 1999, Week 2
February 1999, Week 1
January 1999, Week 5
January 1999, Week 4
January 1999, Week 3
January 1999, Week 2
January 1999, Week 1
December 1998, Week 5
December 1998, Week 4
December 1998, Week 3
December 1998, Week 2
December 1998, Week 1
November 1998, Week 5
November 1998, Week 4
November 1998, Week 3
November 1998, Week 2
November 1998, Week 1
October 1998, Week 5
October 1998, Week 4
October 1998, Week 3
October 1998, Week 2
October 1998, Week 1
September 1998, Week 5
September 1998, Week 4
September 1998, Week 3

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