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CONLANG  July 2007, Week 3

CONLANG July 2007, Week 3

Subject:

Re: Grammar-holes: secondary predication

From:

Douglas Koller <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Mon, 16 Jul 2007 20:56:39 +0000

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (128 lines)

From: Carsten Becker <[log in to unmask]>

[snippage and reordering not marked]

> On Tue, 5 Jun 2007 13:17:19 +0200, taliesin the storyteller <taliesin-
> [log in to unmask]> wrote:
__________________________________

> >"We spent all night talking about I can't remember what."

> I'd split these sentences:

>   We spent all night talking about something which I can't remember.

> In German I'd say

>   Wir haben die ganze Nacht über irgendwas geredet, an das 
>   ich mich nicht mehr erinnern kann.

Géarthnuns closely follows the German here, while keeping "spend" in:

Trízh lé chö shebsöt ersfaneböt shahöchensab ésh, vapat fí la ölöbau ba rhagaçön kalokh sho, ba vbezçöl sof.

we/dual-nom aux/past the night/acc whole/acc something/postpositional about, which/acc-neg I/nom-neg aux/pres no.longer verb-linker remember be.able clause-ender, verb-linker talk spend
____________________________________

> >"She bought I lost count how many kinds of cheese."
 
> I'd split these sentences:
 
>   She bought (so) many kinds of cheese I lost count about them.
 
> In German I'd say

>   Sie hat so viele Sorten Käse gekauft, das ich aufgehört 
>   habe, zu zählen.
>   "She has so many kinds of cheese bought that I stopped
>   have to count."

Géarthnuns:

San lé sö audhobsöt sík kabílsíf ezgaulíf hírheu, gü fí lé salasa-u ba bvérhel hekalokh sho, vazh.

she/nom aux/past some cheese/acc some sort/pl-instrumental many/pl-instr so, that I/nom-neg aux/past clearly verb-linker count be.able/conclusive clause-ender buy
______________________________________

> >"They eat fish raw" = they eat fish, the fish being raw as they eat it
> >"They eat fish naked" = they eat fish, they are naked while doing so

> Ayeri:

>   Sira kondiyatang inunin alautisoy.
>   The fish, they eat it unfried.

Géarthnuns:

Rheth la cha víöbaltensat jonat glozh.

they/nom aux/pres the fish.flesh/acc raw/acc eat

>   Sira kondiyatang tehau inunin.
>   The fish, they eat it nakedly.

Rheth trukangethep la cha víöbaltensat glozh.

they/nom naked/pl-nom aux/pres the fish.flesh eat

>   Sira kondiyatang inunin atehau
>   The naked fish they eat.

I'm not sure what a "naked fish" is, but:

Rheth la cha víöbaltensat trukangenat glozh.

they/nom aux/pres the fish.flesh/acc naked/acc eat
________________________________________

> >"Jane cooked the chicken hot" can mean:

> >"Jane was hot while cooking the chicken" (depictive, subject)

>   a. Mamayaiye matikan ang Jane luga maersiyeang vipinaris.
>      PST.feel.3s:f hot AGT:Jane while PST.cook.3s:f.AGT bird.PAT
>      Jane felt hot while she cooked the bird.

Jéns azhan lé cha papöteraltensat sazakan.

Jane/nom hot/nom aux/past the chicken.flesh/acc cook

> >"The chicken was hot while Jane cooked it" (depictive, object)

>   b. Ang maersiye in Jane vipinaris amatikan.
>      TRG:AGT PST.cook.3s:f TRG:Jane bird.PAT PAT.hot
>      Jane cooked the hot bird.

I don't think this interpretation works for me in this case. Logically, why would you cook a hot chicken? (I suppose it could have sat in the sun, making it hot, and still have been uncooked.) But also and more importantly, I don't think "eating chicken hot" and "cooking chicken hot" are analogous in this interpretation. (Ah, just read something on secondary predication; their "coinstantiation patterns differ.") Nevertheless:

Jéns lé cha papöteraltensat vdouçanat sazakan.

Jane/nom aux/past the chicken.flesh/acc hot/acc cook

> >"The chicken became hot as a result of Jane cooking it" (resultative)

>   c. Isa maersiye in Jane vipinaris amatikan.
>      TRG:CAU PST.cook.3s:f TRG:Jane bird.PAT PAT.hot
>      Due to Jane's cooking the bird is hot. (using the causative)

Jéns lé cha papöteraltensat sa vdouçansab sfen sazakan.

Jane/nom aux/past the chicken.flesh/acc a hot.one/postpositional as cook

> >Is this a hole in your grammars also?

I'm not sure that a language not having a structure that another does is necessarily a "hole." Besides

> >"We spent all night talking about I can't remember what."
> >"She bought I lost count how many kinds of cheese."
                                                 ^
                                (I'd put  "of"  here)

are, for me, akin to "I ran into a man that I don't remember his name." They're out there, they're understandable, which I guess makes them grammatical on a descriptive level, but whether as a matter of style or prescriptiveness, they still make me cringe.
 
> I fear so. There are ways to get around this, though, as you can see above.
 
Indeed.

Kou

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