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CONLANG  August 2007, Week 2

CONLANG August 2007, Week 2

Subject:

Re: Carthage (was: C etc.)

From:

Eric Christopherson <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Mon, 13 Aug 2007 23:15:58 -0500

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (55 lines)

On Aug 13, 2007, at 4:57 AM, R A Brown wrote:

> Andreas Johansson wrote:
>> Quoting R A Brown <[log in to unmask]>:
>>> K virtually disappeared. It was retain as an abbreviation for the  
>>> proper
>>> name Casca, and also, where context made clear, for Carthage,  
>>> Calends,
>>> calumny (calumnia) and 'caput' (head).
>>  Reminds me: was _Carthago_ pronounced as _Cart-hago_, reflecting  
>> more closely
>> Phoenician/Punic _Qart-H.adasht_, or _Car-thago_ as if from Greek?
>
> Interesting question. As you obviously know it was not from the  
> Greek name for the city which was _Karkhe:do:n_ (or, presumably, in  
> Doric Greek _Karkha:do:n_).
>
> The Latin form is certainly closer to the Punic name. Presumably  
> the Romans would have picked up the name of the city from peoples  
> of Sicily, both Greek & Carthaginian - indeed, it was the struggles  
> between these two colonial powers (never mind the native Sicels,  
> Sicanian & Elymians) that got the Romans first involved with the  
> Carthaginians.
>
> While Latin Cart- would be fair Latinization of Punic _Qart_  
> (city), -ha:go: (genitive: -ha:ginis) is too far removed from  
> _H.adasht_ (new) for the Latin to be directly derived from the  
> Punic. The Latin name looks almost as tho it is a 'portmanteau  
> formation': a Latinized blend of Doric Greek & Punic. In which case  
> I think _Car-tha-go_ is likely to have been the normal  
> syllabification from the start.

How is it a portmanteau, though? I don't see exactly what the  
ingredient parts would have been.

Incidentally, a classicist I know told me a few years ago that Punic  
had a habit of abbreviating words by truncating them and adding -o,  
thus giving _Qart H.ado_ (and possibly _Hanno_?). He didn't offer an  
explanation for the /g/, though.

>
> As hostilities grew bitter between the two nations, then it is very  
> unlikely IMO that any attempt would have been made to reflect a  
> Punic pronunciation & by the high Classical period, Punic had  
> probably ceased to be spoken.
>
>> Greek loans
>> must have accounted for by far the most instances of |th| in  
>> Classical Latin.
>
> Yes, indeed.
>
> -- 
> Ray

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