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AUXLANG  October 2007, Week 3

AUXLANG October 2007, Week 3

Subject:

Re: Criteria for an IAL and why we divide

From:

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Reply-To:

[log in to unmask]

Date:

Fri, 19 Oct 2007 20:18:33 -0400

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (118 lines)

> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Antonielly
Garcia Rodrigues

> On 10/19/07, Bruce Gilson <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> >
> > It seems to me that the auxlang community is, and forever
> will be, sharply
> > divided into factions, and the reason is that we are using
> diverse (and
> > often conflicting) criteria for judging languages.
>
> This is true. However, I don't find this necessarily bad. A lot of
> things that I learn here result from this deadlock. Indeed, my
hobby
> of discussing auxlangs wouldn't be possible without this lack of
> unanimity. (But there are a lot of issues in which there is
widespread
> consensus, although not unanimity. It would be very nice if
someone
> could collect them somewhere, for easy reference.)

I have to go along with this.  No, there isn't a lot of agreement
here, but there is still something to be learned from the debates.
Some very valid points are made about various aspects of each
auxlang, and I have taken the strong points into my language
designs.


> > I can recall my arguments
> > with Esperantists being rather bitter, and the main reason
> was that almost
> > all Esperantists (perhaps the "almost" doesn't belong!) put
> great stock in
> > one criterion, which is what software engineers call
> "installed base." More
> > people speak Eo than all other IALs combined, and that is
> the be-all and
> > end-all of most of the Eo enthusiasts' argument. It trumps
> everything else
> > in their mind.
>
> I think this is rationalization. Some Esperantists often use this
> argument because it is one of the few they can use without being
> contradicted by another opinion (since it is not an opinion, but
an
> undeniable fact). The use of this argument is a propaganda tool;
it is
> one of their strongest weapons in the "language wars". But I would
bet
> the reason most of them like Esperanto is not because it has the
> biggest user base among conauxlangs (although maybe some of them
would
> not publicly acknowledge that).

I'm guessing the reason Esperanto attracts users, is that it really
is the only one that does have a respectably large user base!  Even
if you go by the most conservative estimates of 100,000 users that's
still much more than any of the others, of which I don't think I've
seen anything more than about 1500 users for any one of them.


> Anyway, the use of this propaganda tool is not an evil thing.
> Activists of other conauxlangs do the same thing (of course, with
> other arguments, that intend to demonstrate their languages are
> better). Marketing is part of the political competition game.

And unfortunately, it's marketing (aka propoganda) that's
responsible for a lot of the things we have to put up with.


> > For me, by contrast, the "installed base" argument counts for
> > ...
>
> Let me put myself in their shoes just as a thought exercise. If I
were
> an Esperantist, I would argue that it has the biggest user base
among
> the languages which are not associated to any nation, State, or
> specific people. Given that the requirement of not being
associated to
> those entities is another must-have in their opinion, we can
discard
> English and Chinese in this regard, since they do not qualify.

> > So if you ignore the installed-base criterion, as I do, ...

> >... I think that
> > most of us (once we've dropped out the Esperantists)
> consider two criteria
> > important: recognizability of morphemes and consistency of
> morphology.
>
> There are many, many others. For instance, the "quality" of the
> phoneme inventory, the 1-1 phoneme-grapheme alignment, the need
for a
> "creolish" look, and the machinability virtues (lack of
diacritics,
> lack of non-ANSI alphabetic characters, etc.) are often mentioned
here
> (although they are not necessarily valued by everybody). For some,
> flexible word order is very important too.

I won't say those things aren't all valued by everyone, I just think
each one of us give each one of those criterion a different weight
for their decisions. Some just think that traditional orthographies
give better recoginition, therefore outweighing the need for 1:1.  I
would argue for 1:1 over tradition.

> Other participants can mention a plethora of other criteria which
have
> been discussed here.

Yes there are others.  Lexical issues seem to make up the bulk of
the debate here, usually having to do with choices of vocabulary
sources, but I don't see a lot here about semantic schemes, and very
little ever mentioned about grammar, except for the omnirecurrent
threads about things like E-o's accussative "-n", etc.

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