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AUXLANG  October 2007, Week 4

AUXLANG October 2007, Week 4

Subject:

Re: Worldlangs critique

From:

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Reply-To:

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Date:

Mon, 22 Oct 2007 10:30:19 -0400

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (78 lines)

> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Risto Kupsala

> Dana Nutter wrote:
> > Right, it works for them because there is some agreement among
them
> > as to how things are ordered, and what needs to be said, but a
free
> > word order would certainly make a mess of things very quickly.
With
> > a supposed "free" word order, there is no way to figure out what
is
> > meant by "sky blue" or "blue sky". Which is the headword? Does
> > "cathouse" mean the same as "housecat?". Proximity alone isn't
> > enough. There needs to be some sort of prescribed order to break
up
> > the confusion.
>
> You have a fixation with fixed word order, Dana. First of all
> there are
> other means to mark the words than prescribed word order. In
Esperanto
> it's perfectly possible to say "doma kato" and "kato doma".

Yes, it works in Esperanto, but only because there's a mechanism to
show how they fit together.  In this case, it's the POS markers.  In
a "pidgin-like" language with no POS marking and abiguous
adpositions, there just isn't any way to figure out which way the
words fit.

I don't really have a fixation with fixed ordering, but there's only
so far you can take the "free order" concept before you encounter
problems.  Languages which have a more liberal order do compensate
for that in some other way, usually case markers of some sort.

> Besides, in our Gaia project two years ago me, Jens and
> Florent agreed to
> have *two* linking particles, one for left branching and the other
for
> right branching word order. We understood their necessity in
isolating
> language but we didn't want to foster a single word order.
> Jens' Neo Patwa
> has currently "di" and "po" and Pandunia has similar
> particles too, but I
> haven't decided yet completely which words to use. ("The
> problem with "di"
> is that in Cantonese/Mandarin it marks opposite word order
compared to
> Italian.)

That's another issue.  If you offer a more flexible word order, then
you need *something* to mark the relationship between words.  Case
inflections can do the trick, but proper usage can be very difficult
to learn, moreso than just learning a fixed order.  Just look at all
the criticism of E-o's "-n" suffix!

Well, the mandarin "de" is also an adjectival marker, not just a
genitive construction (like "-'s" in English).  Chinese apparently
thinks of them as the same thing (something I incorporated into
Deini).


> > FWIW: I don't see where a tight word order is even a
> > problem. Of all the problems I've heard from L2 English
speakers,
> > word order isn't really much of an issue. I can't say I've ever
> > heard a Spanish or French speaker srtuggle with the idea of
putting
> > adjectives before nouns, or pronoun objects after the verb.
>
> It's no more than a matter of getting used to. For me placing
> adjective after noun felt weird at first but I got over it
shortly.

That's the point.  You really didn't have a problem, nor have I ever
seen a case where changing word order caused any significant
problems.

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