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AUXLANG  October 2007, Week 4

AUXLANG October 2007, Week 4

Subject:

Re: Criteria for an IAL and why we divide

From:

auliuniv <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

International Auxiliary Languages <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Wed, 24 Oct 2007 10:43:11 -0700

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (128 lines)

On 24 Oct 2007 at 9:58, James Chandler wrote:

> I think Bruce, that if strict POS marking is so high
> up your list, then you really need to drop the
> troublesome -tione suffix, which is the only reason
> why Novial needs the four verb endings after all.

Are you saying that -tione is troublesome only for Novial, or are you making a general 
statement that -tion, with or without the  -e, is troublesome? If so, why? Isn't this one of the 
items that make a language international? Versus, having to create a "fake" word in a "fake" 
language that everyone has to memorize in order to use the "fake" "international" language 
with no international words in it?


> 
> Indeed, if you want to take the language a little in
> the Ido direction, ditching this suffix should be a
> natural move.

Why go in the Ido direction which is a step in the Esperanto direction? If one is going to do 
that just go for Esperanto, both are "fake" languages in the sense that I am talking, or maybe 
better, "crossword puzzle" languages. Which explains the popularity of Esp. Lots of people 
like crossword puzzles.

On the other hand, why not go in the direction of a language like Occ which strives to use 
what is basically familiar to the maximum number of people in the international community?


> 
> Otherwise, I'm afraid to say that perhaps some on this
> list will agree with me when I say, that it seems to
> me that you are being just a wee bit too picky when it
> comes to a choice of "euroclone".  There are some here
> who find it hard to tell the difference between all
> these languages anyway, and develop outlandish schemes
> based on Arabic and Chinese!

I don't see why you continue to use the false label "euroclone" which is nothing more than a 
typical expression created to put in the mind of the reader that there is something inherently 
wrong with such a language. That way, you don't have to confront the reality of the language 
that works with the majority of people, so you can con them into going with a "fake" worse 
than "puzzle" language made under the concept usually of one man's opinion.

Also, when one considers the number of words within European languages that came from 
other cultures, then one could say that those languages are "worldclones" if one wanted to be 
really picky about it. And, with that in mind, the idea of a "euroclone" falls into the garbage 
pail where the word belongs.

There is no need for developing "outlandish schemes based on Arabic and Chinese" or any 
other language like them with a real IAL. First of all, an IAL starts off working *first* with 
people who might need an IAL. Secondly, as the IAL is U S E D it will gradually incorporate 
other words from other languages such as Chinese, etc. as those words become 
international in usage. A simple example would be kowtow.

Thirdly, a really good IAL has a simple grammar compared to national languages, so that 
those from an oriental or arabic or whatever background can learn them with a lot less hassle 
than English, French, etc.

And, they will only start to learn them when they see those of us who espouse IAL's using 
them. Right now all they have is a bunch of folks constantly trying to reinvent the wheel. No 
one is going to use the wheel until it is used by the inventor. And, in addition, why do we need 
a thousand or more IAL's when that is the very thing IAL's were supposed to eliminate.

It seems to me that we already have the best candidates right now to work with. So, why not 
work with them, use them, improve them, and cause a screeching halt in all this continual 
reinventing the wheel that nobody is using.

Esperanto, is the only problem, as I see it on this front. Basically, if one follows the practice 
and dictum, you cannot improve or change Esperanto UNTIL the world accepts it. What 
Esperanto should do, yeah, I know, Esperanto is not a person, but Esperanto should break 
out of this stagnate nonsense of sticking with the Fundamento, and let the language grow up 
by usage, and like Occidental, change whatever needs changing as ***experience*** 
dictates.

Occidental is very flexible this way, and has a track record to prove it of over a hundred years 
when you consider its first beta version Auli. It is marvelously different from what it was when 
the world first saw it.

Interlingua is the newest of the three. And, it is already showing signs of subtle changes, not 
surprisingly in the direction of Occidental.

If then, the three above were concentrated on I suspect the world's attention would perk up, 
and more people would become interested and start using them.

And, with the using of them, I bet that what we would end up with would be Occidental, 
because, one, it is the perfect mix between Esp and ILa. Two, it is the easiest to improve 
without doing any damage to its foundation. Three, because it has the method to easily add 
words from more languages out the door than the other two above.

Surely, it would be easier to get behind these three and let actual world usage create the 
fallout of the three, or the change into one fundamental language, than continually trying to 
develop new ones by the dozen each six months.

Look at James. Just in the past six months he has in essence gone through 4 languages 
now. And, the end result, frankly, is  he is headed right straight into the path of Occidental, 
just as did Jespersen and his cohort. And, as did many other language developers in the past 
100 years.

In my mind what it boils down to is this. You either go toward Esperanto or Occidental when 
you try developing these languages. They all, almost, could be divided into these two 
categories.

As to a core of Occidental speakers, they already exist in four places. In Esperanto ranks as 
well as Ido and other such languages. Within the ranks of Interlingua. Within the ranks of 
those of us who only work with Occidental, and within the ranks of some I've come across 
who have dropped the IAL idea but were using Occidental.

Who developed Occidental? We all know about de Wahl, obviously. But, who were the 
developers? Grabowski was one. But, let's not name names now, just languages. The 
greatest pioneers and developers of Occidental were Esperantists, Idoists, Novialists, 
Volap√ľkists, and a whole bunch of other languageists. You can read their names in 
Kosmoglott and Cosmoglotta.

And how was Occidental developed after it hit the street in 1922? By using it. All the above 
linguists from Esp to Novial, used the language, made suggestions and corrections, etc. and 
we ended up with modern day Occidental the IAL developed by dozens of Espists, Idoists, 
Novialists, etc.

How can one argue with that tradition? I suppose the best argument against Occidental is to 
ignore it.

Several now are beginning to sit up and take notice of it, and are no longer ignoring it.

Bob
> 
> 
> Kordiale, James Chandler

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