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AUXLANG  October 2007, Week 5

AUXLANG October 2007, Week 5

Subject:

Re: Don't try to read my mind!

From:

auliuniv <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

International Auxiliary Languages <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Mon, 29 Oct 2007 14:01:47 -0700

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (158 lines)

On 29 Oct 2007 at 13:13, James Chandler wrote:

> Bob scrit:
> 
> >When Occidental is finally taken up by enough
> Westerners to make it the international language to be
> noticed by the Orient and others, then the language is
> designed to begin including them too.
> 
> How?  Imagine I am a chinaman.  My L1 is mandarin and
> I don't speak an L2.  How is Occ any easier for me to
> learn than Ido, Novial or Interlingua?

James, always cut to the extreme to stop the simple from happening.

You should relate to this. A conscientious objecter applies for a deferment from the army. So, 
he is taken to court and the lawyer jumps in to screw him and his beliefs.

He is called to the stand and sworn in. The lawyer begins. You say you are a CO. Is that 
true?

Yes, says the man.

The lawyer then says, if that is true, what would you do if someone broke into your house, 
held you at gun point, beat your children and raped your wife all in front of you? What would 
you do Mr. CO?

This is a trick question to try and screw with the CO and his beliefs.

First, it is a very unlikely scenario, and we're talking war killing, not family invasion.
Second, the guy is pointing a gun at him so he can't do anything.
Thirdly, it doesn't go to the question of why he is a CO, nor how that applies to being drafted 
to go to war, which is in essence a killing machine.

So, your question to me, is the same kind of question. For, the implication is, see the 
extreme, which we will never meet for decades, can't be answered so let's go on our merry 
way and continue reinventing the wheel.

In the first place, Occidental is not of any interest to this man. The very question shows that 
he feels no need to have a second language. If he did, he would already have been studying 
a second language. Ergo, he is not a subject for an IAL in the first place.

In the second place, the question avoids the real question, how do we get him interested in 
Occidental in the first place? How? Simple. By using it to the point it becomes THE 
international language to learn if one NEEDS a second language for international 
communication. Right now you couldn't sell Occ to him, or Novial, or ILa, or Esp. because he 
has no interest.

Why no interest? He needs contact with the outside world in a way that he sees a need.

Then, if he does, just like any language, in his case he will have to start from scratch, just as 
he would with any language you want to mention.

If he then chose Occ, then its advantages would outweigh the others.

It has a simple grammar, it has a vocabulary recognized and used by a great number of 
people into international communications, and it can and will gradually inculcate words that 
he will also be familiar with.

I don't see this as the question to answer right now James. First, it doesn't matter until we get 
an IAL used enough that other language groups see the value in learning it, or any IAL.

To me, this kind of question is like, Well, h---, Wilber, it's great for flying around the block, but 
it can't even get across the city much less over the ocean. And, even if it could, it would take 
longer than a ship at the speed it flies, and if it snows or rains I'll get soaking wet.

Instead, Wilber said, Hey man, this is just the beginning. All the rules are now in place. We 
know about drag, lift, power, angle of attack, etc. etc. and we know how to turn the darn 
thing. Nobody else can do that, that's why they failed.

Next thing you know there is a monoplane. Then a jet. Then a jumbo. Then a rocket plane. 
Then a shuttle into space. etc. etc.

All growth is stopped by the ever incessant questioner of, yeah but, what about this extreme, 
or that extreme, and besides we can't take this one step at a time, we must jump to the end 
to make it work. If you want to walk to the chinaman in the field who only speaks mandarin, 
then you have to start the journey with a system that has the fundamentals in place. Then, it 
is one step at a time.

Step 1. Create the language. Done for Occ.
Step 2. Improve the language. Done in Occ. and still going on.
Step.3  Promote it like crazy to the world to get enough people using it to create word of 
mouth interest. Now just starting to be done for Occ.
Step.4  Begin including others as they start the process of using the language. Next step for 
Occ.
Step.5 Use these new individuals from other language cultures to help input the added 
needed vocabulary into Occ, since we aren't fluent in those languages. Further step for Occ.
Step.6 Occidental is fully developed and useful for the chinaman in china who wants 
international communication with ease. Final step, except for improvements coming through 
usage by the whole world.

To me James, you want to jump from #1 to #7 and skip all the rest which can take years, 
maybe decades or more. And, it is not just you, but all the language "creators" here are trying 
to solve # 7 but can barely even get to #2 yet.

I know this doesn't answer your question directly. But it does present the "problem" I see in all 
the discussion  here, and in some other places. Always jumping and never doing the leg work 
necessary first.

Now, for you. What is it you think has to be added to any language for a chinaman to learn it? 
Why doesn't that same chinaman learn English, right now? On the other hand, what about 
the chinaman that does learn English, with no potential built in to include other language 
cultures? Why did he learn English?

Frankly, if one would learn the actual rules of Occ and use them they would eventually see 
the answer and potential in Occ.

Let me give you a totally simple and opposite answer to what you are asking.

Do you know you can take English alone, and turn it into an Occidental form?

To start with just do this. Anytime you say something in English in the past tense, tack on -t, 
instead of the -d of English. I formet the word myself. I laughet at him yesterday. I spoket to 
him last week.

Now you are starting to gradually turn English into an even more international language. In 
fact, just take the rules of Occidental an apply them only to English, and you will have a more 
international English. And, easier to learn because of its simple grammar.

Then, do the same with Spanish, only here, in Spanish and other languages, do not use the 
conjugation of the verbs Spanish uses. Always use only the third person singular of the verb 
with the Spanish pronouns. Ergo, a more international Spanish and a simpler Spanish.

Then, take Russian, and start using the rules of grammar of Occidental with the vocabulary 
instead of the Russian rules of grammar. And, you will have a simpler and more international 
Russian.

Now, use each of the languages in this new form with each other, i.e. Englishman, Spaniar, 
Frenchman, Russian, etc. and you will be understanding each other better right off the bat. 
And, then with a few weeks of work, you will notice the vocabulary starting to meld together 
from these languages, and the ones that don't work will be replaced with those that do. End 
result, Occidental.

Now, as a clue, start with a language like Arabic. We already have some words there. Use 
the arabic language with the grammar of Occidental, and you will have a simpler and more 
international arabic language. Then, with a little help begin to use the latin alphabet to spell 
the words for writing. Hmmmm? Maybe not perfect, but it's starting to turn into Occidental.

And, as this is done, and as the words are used with others doing the same with their 
languages, as above, then the arabic vocabulary will start to slowly merge with the 
vocabulary of the others. End result. Occidental.

Ultimately, you will hear more of this same question. Well, Occidental is too arabic for me, or 
too german for me, or too spanish for me, or french, or english, or ...... :) chinese.

Why? Because to be blunt about it, Occidental is not a language per se. It is a METHOD of 
changing national languages into a more international form. This is why Occidental works as I 
mentioned with the Moroccan. It is not an international language as in crossing international 
borders. It is an INTER national language/method. That is, like a fish, it swims in and around 
and with the other languages to help bring them together in a form that can be understood 
across borders.

It is not totally that simple, because it takes work to make anything go. But, that is the main 
idea behind Occidental as I have grown to see it from reading the material from the very 
beginning till today.

Bob

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