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AUXLANG  November 2007, Week 1

AUXLANG November 2007, Week 1

Subject:

Re: Why cross-linguistic world auxiliary language?

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Date:

Sat, 3 Nov 2007 14:15:51 -0400

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> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of steve rice

> There is some truth to that. What is striking about
> worldlangs generally is the attitude, "This has had
> very limited success. Let's try something much
> harder--it's sure to work!"

Worldlangs are only harder for the one group that's already favored
by the existing glut of Euroclones.  For the majority it will make
things easier because they now have find a least a few
familiarities.  Euroclone supporters are just afraid to leave their
own comfort zone.

> However evil it may be to draw vocabulary in
> particular from a few privileged (and very widely
> spoken) languages, at least it provides leverage. To
> diffuse support is to defuse support.

Then why bother at all?  We already have English.  It's already
established a strong base, and is growing very quickly.  If we can't
have an element of neutrality, then let's just stick with the status
quo.

> Now, this leads to the question, "Why has a
> focused-leverage method not done any better?" But the
> answer is not a priori, "Because it doesn't work." If
> focused leverage doesn't work, diffuse leverage
> certainly won't.
>
> This is where Dave, Don, and many others say, "What if
> the obstacle isn't the language as such? What if it's
> popular bias and resistance to novelty?" Have you
> answered that question? Can you answer it in such a
> way that the greater novelty and lesser track record
> of your approach does not become a liability?

So far, worldlangs have no track record at all so it's far too early
to judge.  Eurolangs have had 120 years and really haven't seen any
significant market penetration.  Insanity is doing the same thing
over and over and expecting a different result.  Let's try something
a little different.

> > My opinion is that only a worldlang has any
> > realistic chance to become
> > the universal second language of the world. So if it
> > takes five years to
> > make the worldlang then so be it. It must be done.
>
> I appreciate your idealism. Idealism has a bad record
> in the real world, however. A lot of tyrants,
> especially over the last 250 years, have been
> frustrated idealists. Sometimes it's necessary to
> compromise with reality--and it needn't even be a
> long-term compromise.

This whole planned WAL idea is idealistic.  Realistically, none of
them have much more than a snoball's chance in Hell.  It's the 4th
quarter with 2 minutes left on the clock.  The score is English:
750, All-Conlangs: 2.  English has possession of the ball.  Anyone
want to bet on the outcome?





>
> >  > I guess I do think that to a certain extent,
> > since I don't believe
> >  > that the underlying reasons behind wordlangs is
> > valid - that ease of
> >  > learning is based on finding vocabulary that you
> > already know in your
> >  > native tongue,
> >
> > I don't emphasize it that much. Ease of learning is
> > not based on finding
> > familiar words, but familiar words are helpful to
> > some extent, maybe
> > critically. Language learning is sometimes compared
> > to climbing a
> > mountain. Euroclones basically provide a stairway
> > carved to the rock for
> > a privileged class of people, but there's also a
> > sign that says "No dogs
> > and no Chinamen allowed" or something like that. You
> > know quite well
> > what I mean. A worldlang doesn't provide a stairway
> > to anyone, but it
> > provides everybody a foothold here and a handhold
> > there, just enough to
> > help you to climb that mountain. It won't be easy
> > but there will be
> > something to hold on to all the way up.
>
> The problem is that early adopters need ease. Without
> initial ease, a project is doomed. Yet there is an
> obvious alternative: why not try an incremental
> approach?
>
> Suppose you get the grammar tweaked just so--an easy,
> globally accessible grammar such as worldlangers
> usually champion. Now use focused leverage on the
> vocabulary! Go ahead and use words that will be easy
> for the early adopters. Once the ease helps get the
> first wave of users, you can make social justice
> arguments and introduce globally based synonyms, such
> as "hao" alongside "bon" or "gud" and "yao" alongside
> "desir." If you're right about the untapped craving
> for global vocabulary, this should help the language
> catch on with non-Westerners, and you'll get a second
> wave even stronger than the first. Over time, the
> global user base will evolve a truly global lexicon.
> But you don't start at the end!
>
> >  > and that people are really that concerned about
> > where a
> >  > language's vocab comes from.
> >
> > I think that people expect by default that a
> > constructed world language
> > reflects the linguistic diversity of the world. Or
> > at least they will
> > agree that it makes perfectly sense once they are
> > told about it.
>
> Idealism again. If you ask most people, "Do you think
> the government should cut back on its expenditures?"
> they'll say yes. But when you start asking about
> specific programs, they start saying no. Agreement in
> principle means nothing. Agreement to the level of
> committed, daily action is what matters. The
> bobbleheads who nod at your reasoning will not, for
> the most part, do anything about it. Euroclones have a
> slightly better track record, at least in the west.
>
> >  > It's not really true for the following reasons:
> >  > 1) The vocab you recognize in your native tongue
> > probably has a
> >  > slightly different usage than in the worldlang,
> > so either the
> >  > worldlang is going to have to accept possible
> > other usage of these
> >  > words when native speakers encounter them, or
> > it's going to have to
> >  > tell them to only use it in a limited sense, in
> > which case it's little
> >  > different from learning a new word
> >
> > In some cases it is true but not in all cases. A TV
> > is a TV and the sun
> > is the sun in most languages.
>
> Is a hand a hand in most languages? Or a foot a foot?
> But it's disingenuous to talk about nouns, the easiest
> class. What about verbs? What is running? People do
> it. What about cars? What about water? Or
> adjectives--is green always just green? Buildings can
> be high. What about prices? Are hot to touch and hot
> to taste the same thing?
>
> Steve
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com

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