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AUXLANG  November 2007, Week 1

AUXLANG November 2007, Week 1

Subject:

Re: Why cross-linguistic world auxiliary language?

From:

MacLeod Dave <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

International Auxiliary Languages <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Sun, 4 Nov 2007 03:08:16 +0900

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (107 lines)

2007/11/4, [log in to unmask] <[log in to unmask]>:
> > [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of MacLeod Dave
>
> > As I've written before though, I don't see any benefit in doing
> so.
> > That is, if a language is based just on Japanese as you said you
> could
> > derive all sorts of things from atsui like atsusa, or to give a
> better
> > example you can turn words like kokusai into kokunai, then
> kokusaika
> > (suru), kokunaika (suru), kokuritsu and all the other words you
> can
> > make from these. With a wordlang though it's going to be more than
> > likely that the creator(s) will do something like choose kokusai
> for
> > international in order to be fair to Japanese, and then maybe go
> for
> > something like 'lokal' or 'nashonal' for kokunai in order to be
> fair
> > to English people, and so on. This is one possible result, a
> ruining
> > of a perfectly good derivational system in the name of fairness.
> > Another possible result is the creation of an Esperanto-like
> > derivational system, which could work quite well but is going to
> > result in 'all the people of the world having to to adjust to one
> > system', the system created by the creator of the worldlang, or
> IOW a
> > system known by only a handful of people. How is a wordlang
> supposed
> > to avoid that?
>
> That's what an auxlang is about though.  It's about everyone
> learning a single way to speak and write.  There's nothing wrong
> with a derivational system like E-o's.  It works well, and it's easy
> to learn.

That's pretty much what I was saying. E-o works well because of its
derivational system. Somehow I doubt wordlangers are aiming for
something like that though.

>
>
> > So just to get back to my first sentence, there doesn't seem to be
> > much benefit in trying to be fair as it's actually fairer to have
> a
> > clear derivational system than to try to take words from sources
> that
> > have completely different ways of forming words. As a student of
> > language it's actually much easier this way, and you know this as
> a
> > student (well, fluent speaker) of Japanese - I'm sure you've
> noticed
> > that the odd English word in Japanese only serves to confuse
> things,
> > not to help them. Imagine if kokunai was the same, but for some
> reason
> > kokusai was inta-nashonaru, that hikouki was still airplane but
> > instead of the verb hikou suru it's now been replaced with furai
> suru
> > for fly. That doesn't help at all, does it? Wouldn't you just
> prefer
> > there be no English words at all?
>
> Purism is fine if you are speaking about a natural language like
> Japanese because those "foreign" words tend to make the whole system
> irregular, but by your argument, you may as well eliminate the
> Sinitic vocabulary from Japanese too.  The problem isn't that the
> labels for these concepts come from English or Chinese.  The issue
> is that the language already had its own labels for these things in
> the first place, or at least a system to create them.

No, sinitic vocabulary is as well integrated into Japanese as Latin is
to English. English is not. There's a certain critical mass of
loanwords needed before people are able to start understanding and
using the derivational system of the language that the loanwords are
all from. If English tomorrow started using a few Japanese words like
kokusai for international and denwa for telephone it would only
confuse things. But if English were to take in a few thousand people
would start to realize that kokusai is the koku in kokunai, that denwa
is the den in denki and wa the wa in kaiwa, and so on.

>
> Unfortuately, when people here talk about "words" they usually refer
> to specific labels given to identify a concept.  Labels are only
> labels.  Where the label comes from isn't really relevant except
> that familar labels are easier to memorize so a mix of labels from
> popular languages means everyone has some familiar labels and some
> unfamiliar ones to deal with.  Choosing labels entirely from one
> source means giving one small group an easy learning path and
> ignoring the needs of the rest.  The only other method would be an a
> priori system, which would certainly be the most neutral but also
> the most difficult for everyone.
>
No, choosing from one source gives the language a logical base that
allows people to guess at the meaning of words they don't know, and to
create new words when necessary without having to consult a few dozen
other languages before deciding on which word is most fair.
And once again, similar vocabulary to one's native language does NOT
equal ease of learning. I can provide endless examples of why this is
the case. Also, ever wondered why Kjell's English is better than his
Danish? (or so he says)


-- 
http://wiki.galbijim.com

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