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AUXLANG  November 2007, Week 1

AUXLANG November 2007, Week 1

Subject:

Re: Why cross-linguistic world auxiliary language?

From:

MacLeod Dave <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

International Auxiliary Languages <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Fri, 2 Nov 2007 01:24:56 +0900

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (118 lines)

2007/11/1, Risto Kupsala <[log in to unmask]>:
> Dave MacLeod wrote:
>  >> In plain figures about 25% of the world's population speak European
>  >> languages and about 11% speak the Romance languages. Obviously it
>  >> doesn't make much sense to base the future world language on such
>  >> minorities. By comparison it would make as much or more sense to base
>  >> the language only on the Indo-Aryan languages (14%) or on the Chinese
>  >> languages (20%) if we disregard their more limited geographical
>  >> distribution.
>  >
>  > Yes, it does make as much sense, by which I mean I'd be willing to
>  > learn a language based on only these languages if it used a
>  > streamlined system similar to the ones used in those languages, in the
>  > same way that 'Euroclones' imitate those in western European
>  > languages.
>
> I'd be willing to learn such languages too because I'm a language
> enthusiast. I have played with the idea of making a Pan-African IAL, a
> Uralic-Altaic IAL and a Sinitic IAL but I haven't put too much time to
> them because each of them would require as much research as what I'm
> currently putting to Pandunia, just on a more detailed scale. All of
> them would be interesting, but the important question is, would the
> creation of any such languages bring us any closer to the real target,
> the *global* IAL?

I think that would almost all depend on promotion. I'm in the Harlow
camp on that one, that once you have a fairly good design and your
language is stable and ready to go, that the only thing you can do is
start the long slog of translating content every day and spreading the
message. If it takes five years longer to create an IAL due to
checking a huge multitude of languages for the vocabulary, then that's
five years of language promotion that one has missed out on. That's
one of the reasons why I even like the idea of just streamlining a
single living language and going with that. Imagine never having to
worry about vocab, what a relief that would be.

>
>  > Generally the more source languages you use the more the
>  > language becomes simply a collection of words (that the creator(s)
>  > likely has little understanding of. Not the creator's fault, since
>  > this is a herculean task).
>
>
> It's a herculean task and that's why it should be divided to humanly
> manageable parts. I call for team work. Dave, I have the impression that
> you know Korean and Japanese pretty well. You could widen your scope and
> study also Chinese (Mandarin and Cantonese at least) and Vietnamese and
> find lexical commonalities in the East Asian languages. All found
> similarities would be very potential candidates to be words in Pandunia.

Yes, my Chinese (Mandarin) is functional too. Since Vietnam is still
quite cheap I'd ideally like to just save up a decent amount of money
and just live there for a year when I decide to learn Vietnamese too.
That won't be for a while though.

>
>  > Quick example: let's say a wordlang creator decides that the Turkish
>  > word denizci for sailor is perfect, and now that's the word they're
>  > going to use. The thing is though, denizci comes from deniz for sea
>  > and ci as an occupational suffix. But ci and deniz aren't going to be
>  > included, perhaps sea will be something like mare instead. Now we have
>  > to learn two words where in the original language you only needed to
>  > know one.
>  > Or it could be the other way around, where deniz is chosen as the word
>  > for sea but saylor is used for sailor. Neither method is easier,
>  > neither method allows the student to get into a system where he can
>  > construct his own words. The only way to do this is to adopt an
>  > Esperanto or Ido-like approach, where words are put into the
>  > language's system and take on a life of their own (denizero,
>  > denizisto, denizala, denize, etc.). I think that's a fine way to do
>  > it, but somehow I doubt that's what wordlangers have in mind.
>
> I don't know why, Dave, but apparently you think that we, the
> worldlangers, are idiots when it comes to word-formation. Maybe the
> problem is that you haven't studied the worldlangs. If you studied them,
> you'd notice that they are fine pieces of work also grammatically. For
> example in Neo Patwa the words for professions are formed regularly by
> suffixing -yan (person). So sailor could be "moana-yan" (sea person) or
> "kapal-yan" (ship person). In Pandunia it would be "nave-jan"
> (ship-person). "Nave" comes not only from the European languages (e.g.
> Italian "nave") but also from the Indo-Aryan languages (e.g. Hindi
> "nav"). "Jan" (pronounced the same as NP "yan") comes from Cantonese
> (it's the same word as Mandarin "ren" but easier to pronounce).
> Suffixing a real word like "person" is of course simpler than using a
> dedicated suffix such as -ist or -ero.
>
I guess I do think that to a certain extent, since I don't believe
that the underlying reasons behind wordlangs is valid - that ease of
learning is based on finding vocabulary that you already know in your
native tongue, and that people are really that concerned about where a
language's vocab comes from. It's not really true for the following
reasons:
1) The vocab you recognize in your native tongue probably has a
slightly different usage than in the worldlang, so either the
worldlang is going to have to accept possible other usage of these
words when native speakers encounter them, or it's going to have to
tell them to only use it in a limited sense, in which case it's little
different from learning a new word
2) Recognizing words you know in another language isn't always that
helpful. The Turkish word for laboratory is laboratuvar but I
struggled with it a bit more than some others because it's a bit
mangled from the form I recognize and it doesn't sound very Turkish,
whereas something like bilimsel yeri (science place, just a fake word
I made up) would have been easier to remember.

The suffix -yan and -jan seem to be fine when looking at the language
alone. Doesn't using them in ways that native languages don't, though,
make the language more of an artificial construct like Esperanto as
opposed to a natural world creole? Once again we're going to have
Cantonese people affixing -jan to all the words they're used to using
it on, and who's going to tell them otherwise? Or are the first few
decades supposed to also be a period of learning from all these native
speakers who are going to show people how these words are really meant
to be used?

-- 
http://wiki.galbijim.com

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February 2003, Week 1
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January 2003, Week 4
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January 2003, Week 1
December 2002, Week 5
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October 2002, Week 5
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October 2002, Week 1
September 2002, Week 5
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March 2002, Week 1
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January 2002, Week 3
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January 2002, Week 1
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October 2001, Week 1
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June 2001, Week 5
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March 2001, Week 1
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February 2001, Week 2
February 2001, Week 1
January 2001, Week 5
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January 2001, Week 3
January 2001, Week 2
January 2001, Week 1
December 2000, Week 5
December 2000, Week 4
December 2000, Week 3
December 2000, Week 2
December 2000, Week 1
November 2000, Week 5
November 2000, Week 4
November 2000, Week 3
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October 2000, Week 5
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October 2000, Week 3
October 2000, Week 2
October 2000, Week 1
September 2000, Week 5
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September 2000, Week 1
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April 2000, Week 5
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April 2000, Week 3
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April 2000, Week 1
March 2000, Week 5
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March 2000, Week 3
March 2000, Week 2
March 2000, Week 1
February 2000, Week 5
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February 2000, Week 3
February 2000, Week 2
February 2000, Week 1
January 2000, Week 5
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January 2000, Week 1
December 1999, Week 5
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October 1999, Week 1
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December 1998, Week 5
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June 1998, Week 3
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June 1998, Week 1
May 1998, Week 5
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April 1998, Week 5
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March 1998, Week 5
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December 1997, Week 5
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April 1997, Week 1
March 1997, Week 5
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March 1997, Week 3
March 1997, Week 2
March 1997, Week 1
February 1997, Week 5
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