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CONLANG  January 2008, Week 5

CONLANG January 2008, Week 5

Subject:

Re: WHAT calendar for the current year 2012

From:

Philip Newton <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Thu, 31 Jan 2008 22:18:21 +0100

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (189 lines)

2008/1/31 R A Brown <[log in to unmask]>:
> Cf. Το όρο «Μάττερχορν» εν το Ελβετίο. Φωτογραφίο εκ το Άνδρου Βόσσι.
>
> 'Matterhorn' names the mountain and I think should come between the
> article and the noun; therefore, I would write the first part thus:
> Το «Μάττερχορν» όρο «Μάττερχορν» το εν Ελβετίο.

I presume you mean Το «Μάττερχορν» όρο το εν Ελβετίο without the
second "Matterhorn"?

Are category-name pairs always in the order article-name-category,
then? "Mount Foo" is the only example that comes to mind immediately,
but what about, hmm, Lake Powell? "Το Παύελ λίμνο"? (Hm, what about
capitalisation - is it "lake Powell" or "Lake Powell"?) "Το Ναιάγρα
Καταρρακτο"?

> 1. Το όρο «Μάττερχορν» εν το Ελβετίο. Φωτογραφίο εκ το Άνδρου Βόσσι.
>
> Most of this has already been commented upon; as for the names, I see no
> reason why the Germanic name 'Matterhorn' should not exist in WHAT and
> the TAKE spelling is fine.
>
> Possibly Josephos Peanou (JP) would have derived the TAKE form of Andrew
> from Greek (because that's where name comes from), in which case we'd
> have Ανδρέο

What's the TAKE policy on "nativising" names?

My guess was that no alteration is made and that names are simply
transcribed as well as possible -- much as, for example, we write
Eduard Shevardnadze and Mikhail Gorbachev, not Edward and Michael. And
Mr Bossi, living in Anglophonia (possible the Enou Basileio, possibly
the Enou Politeio or elsewhere) as he does and speaking Anglish, would
presumably have been christened Androu and not Andreas.

I suppose things might be different for TAKEists in WHAT who might
consciously adopt a TAKEised form of their name for use when speaking
that language (much as, say, an Esperantist *here* might adopt an
Esperantised form of his name for use within the community), but for
Joe Average -- who might not even speak TAKE -- it would seem odd to
me to TAKEise the name.

On the other hand, it's possible that TAKE speakers tend to me more
"aggressive" at nativising names (if an obvious equivalent can be
found) than English speakers. (Even English speakers do this with some
names, e.g. Benjamin Netanyahu rather than Binyamin.) If so, though, I
wonder whether this applies only to cognate names or whether they'd
also translate names, thus making e.g. a Πήτερ Μύλλερ from Germania
into a Πέτρο Μυλώνο (as opposed to the
nativise-cognates-but-don't-translate form Πέτρο Μύλλερ or the plain
transcribed form, which isn't necessary in this case since Germania
uses the Greek alphabet already, but which might be an option e.g. for
someone from India).

Perhaps you could ask JP for clarification on his policy on rendering
names of non-TAKE-speakers.

> 2, Το πύργο «Αίφελ» εν το Παρί εν το Γαλλίο. Φωτογραφίο εκ το Κριστίν
> Σέλεκ Τρεμουλή.
>
> I'm sure Παρί is not the correct form - remember, there'd have been no
> French in WHAT!

D'oh! Yes, I fell into that trap a couple of times.

> I note in Modern Greek it is Παρίσι which I assume is a demotic form of
> Katharevousa Παρίσιον. Therefore - assuming that a city with a similar
> name to Paris existed in the Gaul of WHAT (and that some guy called
> /ajfEl/ built such a structure there) - the TAKE form will be Παρίσιο.

I also wondered whether it might be Λουτέτιο, from the Latin name
Lutetia (the things reading Asterix teachers you...).

> 3. Το πύλο εκ το Βράνδενβουργ εν το Βερλίν εν το Γερμανίο. Φωτογραφίο εκ
> το Ματίας Ζίγμουνδ.
>
> Το εκ Βράνδενβουργ πύλο or perhaps have an adjective derived from
> Brandenburg, e.g. Το Βρανδενβουργικό πύλο
> (Assuming there is a Brandenburg Gate in WHAT  :-)
>
> Assuming that there was a Berlin in WHAT and that it was the capital of
> Germany, I feel sure JP would think the city worthy of having a
> Hellinized form of its name,i.e. Βερλίνο

Modern Greek is Beroλίνο, so perhaps I'd take that one. (And Latin is
apparently Berolinum, at least according to Wikipedia, which would be
another point in favour of the medial -o-.)

> 5. Το μικρό ναιάδο εν το Κοβενχάμν εν το Δανίο. Φωτογραφιο εκ το Άλπερ
> Τσούγουν
>
> Yes, ναϊάδο should, as you observed in another email, have the diaeresis
> if it's properly derived from ancient Greek, i.e. it is tetrasyllabic
> /na.i.'a.da/ rather than trisyllabic /naj'ja.da/. I'm certain JP
> would've insisted on it  :)

Ah; thanks.

> The μν at the end of Κοβενχάμν seems to me unlikely to have been
> retained in TAKE. In any case, I thought the Danish was København.

Quite so -- I had mixed it up with Swedish "Köpenhamn" again.

> 7. Το ναό «Το Άγιο Οικογένειο» εν το Βαρκελώνα εν το Ισπανίο. Φωτογραφιο
> εκ το Χ. Σαλμοράλ
>
> Βαρκελώνα looks a 'spelling loan' so to speak.

Yes. I was influenced, no doubt, by Modern Greek Βαρκελώνη. But yes, a
pronunciation respelling is clearly superior, especially since Ispania
uses the Greek alphabet anyway.

> But on checking I find that the ancient name of the place
> as given by Roman authors was _Barcino_ (gen. Barcinonis) and in Greek
> authors as Βαρκινών (gen. βαρκινῶνος) in Greek. Knowing JP's fondness
> for using the ancient forms as the basis for TAKE, I fee sure he would
> give the name as Βαρκινώνο.
> (The modern Catalonian/Spanish name shows the normal change of Latin
> short /i/ to /e/. I assume the -lon- is dissimilation to avoid repeated
> /n/ in -non-)

That makes much sense. So, the city's name is essentially "Barcinona"
[would that be the accusative in Latin?] + sound change?

> 9. Το Γέφυρο εκ το Πύργο εν το Λόνδον εν το Ένου Βασίλειο. Φωτογραφιο εκ
> το To have Υ. Χ. Λαν.
>
> Tut, tut - Βασίλειο would come from βασίλεια (final short -a) "queen."
> 'Kingdom' was βασιλεία (final long -a).

Modern Greek misled me here -- it's βασίλειο. Well, according to my
dictionary, "Königreich" can be either βασίλειο or βασιλείο, but the
UK, for example, is Το Ηνωμένο Βασίλειο.

Should have checked my Ancient Greek dictionary.

> 10. Το βασίλειο εν το Φαδούτς εν το Λίχτενσταιν. Φωτογραφίο εκ το Μίχαηλ
> Βηάτ
>
> Doesn't look much like a queen to me    :)

I went by my AG dictionary, which gave τα βασίλεια for "Schloss" (and
has "Palast, Hof" as some meanings of the substantivised adjective το
βασίλειον).

> But 'castle' - we can't borrow from Latin _castellum_ as there's no
> Latin in WHAT! However, the ancient word φρούριον will do nicely for
> Schloss or 'castle'; and this will be φρούριο in TAKE.

This is probably better in order to avoid the homophony, even if το
βασίλειον/τα βασίλεια were licit.

> Presumably Βηάτ /be'at/ is his surname (How's it spelled?)

Exactly the way you did :) His name is "Michael Beat", which I first
took for Μαίκλ Βίτ, but who is apparently Swiss so I presumed a
pronunciation of Μίχαελ Βηάτ.

"Beat" is a typically Swiss-German male given name (though the
feminine form "Beate" is also used in Germany), though I suppose in
WHAT the name would not exist, since as far as I can tell, it's from
Latin "beatus". I imagine the photographer's WHATish _alter ego_ might
carry the family name Μακάρ or something like that instead, from the
common Elvetic male given name of the same form.

I think I shan't make that change in my calendar, though -- I'll treat
it as the name of someone from a parallel dimension, where a language
spoken in a backwards part of Italia took over western Europe and gave
its roots to some people's names. (Plus that'll make it easier to
comply with the Attribution clause of the Creative Commons licences of
the images than if I start "sanitising" names with Romance elements
that "shouldn't" exist, in which case I would presumably also have to
add the "standard" version of the name anyway.)

> I hope these observations have been helpful.

Indeed; thank you!

Though I'd appreciate a clarification on the transcription-vs-adaption
policy for foreign proper names.

> But the Calendar is a fine piece of work   :)

Thank you kindly!

Cheers,
-- 
Philip Newton <[log in to unmask]>

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June 2007, Week 2
June 2007, Week 1
May 2007, Week 5
May 2007, Week 4
May 2007, Week 3
May 2007, Week 2
May 2007, Week 1
April 2007, Week 5
April 2007, Week 4
April 2007, Week 3
April 2007, Week 2
April 2007, Week 1
March 2007, Week 5
March 2007, Week 4
March 2007, Week 3
March 2007, Week 2
March 2007, Week 1
February 2007, Week 4
February 2007, Week 3
February 2007, Week 2
February 2007, Week 1
January 2007, Week 5
January 2007, Week 4
January 2007, Week 3
January 2007, Week 2
January 2007, Week 1
December 2006, Week 5
December 2006, Week 4
December 2006, Week 3
December 2006, Week 2
December 2006, Week 1
November 2006, Week 5
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November 2006, Week 3
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November 2006, Week 1
October 2006, Week 5
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October 2006, Week 2
October 2006, Week 1
September 2006, Week 5
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September 2006, Week 2
September 2006, Week 1
August 2006, Week 5
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August 2006, Week 1
July 2006, Week 5
July 2006, Week 4
July 2006, Week 3
July 2006, Week 2
July 2006, Week 1
June 2006, Week 5
June 2006, Week 4
June 2006, Week 3
June 2006, Week 2
June 2006, Week 1
May 2006, Week 5
May 2006, Week 4
May 2006, Week 3
May 2006, Week 2
May 2006, Week 1
April 2006, Week 5
April 2006, Week 4
April 2006, Week 3
April 2006, Week 2
April 2006, Week 1
March 2006, Week 5
March 2006, Week 4
March 2006, Week 3
March 2006, Week 2
March 2006, Week 1
February 2006, Week 4
February 2006, Week 3
February 2006, Week 2
February 2006, Week 1
January 2006, Week 5
January 2006, Week 4
January 2006, Week 3
January 2006, Week 2
January 2006, Week 1
December 2005, Week 5
December 2005, Week 4
December 2005, Week 3
December 2005, Week 2
December 2005, Week 1
November 2005, Week 5
November 2005, Week 4
November 2005, Week 3
November 2005, Week 2
November 2005, Week 1
October 2005, Week 5
October 2005, Week 4
October 2005, Week 3
October 2005, Week 2
October 2005, Week 1
September 2005, Week 5
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September 2005, Week 3
September 2005, Week 2
September 2005, Week 1
August 2005, Week 5
August 2005, Week 4
August 2005, Week 3
August 2005, Week 2
August 2005, Week 1
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July 2005, Week 3
July 2005, Week 2
July 2005, Week 1
June 2005, Week 5
June 2005, Week 4
June 2005, Week 3
June 2005, Week 2
June 2005, Week 1
May 2005, Week 5
May 2005, Week 4
May 2005, Week 3
May 2005, Week 2
May 2005, Week 1
April 2005, Week 5
April 2005, Week 4
April 2005, Week 3
April 2005, Week 2
April 2005, Week 1
March 2005, Week 5
March 2005, Week 4
March 2005, Week 3
March 2005, Week 2
March 2005, Week 1
February 2005, Week 4
February 2005, Week 3
February 2005, Week 2
February 2005, Week 1
January 2005, Week 5
January 2005, Week 4
January 2005, Week 3
January 2005, Week 2
January 2005, Week 1
December 2004, Week 5
December 2004, Week 4
December 2004, Week 3
December 2004, Week 2
December 2004, Week 1
November 2004, Week 5
November 2004, Week 4
November 2004, Week 3
November 2004, Week 2
November 2004, Week 1
October 2004, Week 5
October 2004, Week 4
October 2004, Week 3
October 2004, Week 2
October 2004, Week 1
September 2004, Week 5
September 2004, Week 4
September 2004, Week 3
September 2004, Week 2
September 2004, Week 1
August 2004, Week 5
August 2004, Week 4
August 2004, Week 3
August 2004, Week 2
August 2004, Week 1
July 2004, Week 5
July 2004, Week 4
July 2004, Week 3
July 2004, Week 2
July 2004, Week 1
June 2004, Week 5
June 2004, Week 4
June 2004, Week 3
June 2004, Week 2
June 2004, Week 1
May 2004, Week 5
May 2004, Week 4
May 2004, Week 3
May 2004, Week 2
May 2004, Week 1
April 2004, Week 5
April 2004, Week 4
April 2004, Week 3
April 2004, Week 2
April 2004, Week 1
March 2004, Week 5
March 2004, Week 4
March 2004, Week 3
March 2004, Week 2
March 2004, Week 1
February 2004, Week 5
February 2004, Week 4
February 2004, Week 3
February 2004, Week 2
February 2004, Week 1
January 2004, Week 5
January 2004, Week 4
January 2004, Week 3
January 2004, Week 2
January 2004, Week 1
December 2003, Week 5
December 2003, Week 4
December 2003, Week 3
December 2003, Week 2
December 2003, Week 1
November 2003, Week 5
November 2003, Week 4
November 2003, Week 3
November 2003, Week 2
November 2003, Week 1
October 2003, Week 5
October 2003, Week 4
October 2003, Week 3
October 2003, Week 2
October 2003, Week 1
September 2003, Week 5
September 2003, Week 4
September 2003, Week 3
September 2003, Week 2
September 2003, Week 1
August 2003, Week 5
August 2003, Week 4
August 2003, Week 3
August 2003, Week 2
August 2003, Week 1
July 2003, Week 5
July 2003, Week 4
July 2003, Week 3
July 2003, Week 2
July 2003, Week 1
June 2003, Week 5
June 2003, Week 4
June 2003, Week 3
June 2003, Week 2
June 2003, Week 1
May 2003, Week 5
May 2003, Week 4
May 2003, Week 3
May 2003, Week 2
May 2003, Week 1
April 2003, Week 5
April 2003, Week 4
April 2003, Week 3
April 2003, Week 2
April 2003, Week 1
March 2003, Week 5
March 2003, Week 4
March 2003, Week 3
March 2003, Week 2
March 2003, Week 1
February 2003, Week 4
February 2003, Week 3
February 2003, Week 2
February 2003, Week 1
January 2003, Week 5
January 2003, Week 4
January 2003, Week 3
January 2003, Week 2
January 2003, Week 1
December 2002, Week 5
December 2002, Week 4
December 2002, Week 3
December 2002, Week 2
December 2002, Week 1
November 2002, Week 5
November 2002, Week 4
November 2002, Week 3
November 2002, Week 2
November 2002, Week 1
October 2002, Week 5
October 2002, Week 4
October 2002, Week 3
October 2002, Week 2
October 2002, Week 1
September 2002, Week 5
September 2002, Week 4
September 2002, Week 3
September 2002, Week 2
September 2002, Week 1
August 2002, Week 5
August 2002, Week 4
August 2002, Week 3
August 2002, Week 2
August 2002, Week 1
July 2002, Week 5
July 2002, Week 4
July 2002, Week 3
July 2002, Week 2
July 2002, Week 1
June 2002, Week 5
June 2002, Week 4
June 2002, Week 3
June 2002, Week 2
June 2002, Week 1
May 2002, Week 5
May 2002, Week 4
May 2002, Week 3
May 2002, Week 2
May 2002, Week 1
April 2002, Week 5
April 2002, Week 4
April 2002, Week 3
April 2002, Week 2
April 2002, Week 1
March 2002, Week 5
March 2002, Week 4
March 2002, Week 3
March 2002, Week 2
March 2002, Week 1
February 2002, Week 4
February 2002, Week 3
February 2002, Week 2
February 2002, Week 1
January 2002, Week 5
January 2002, Week 4
January 2002, Week 3
January 2002, Week 2
January 2002, Week 1
December 2001, Week 5
December 2001, Week 4
December 2001, Week 3
December 2001, Week 2
December 2001, Week 1
November 2001, Week 5
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November 2001, Week 1
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October 2001, Week 3
October 2001, Week 2
October 2001, Week 1
September 2001, Week 5
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September 2001, Week 3
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September 2001, Week 1
August 2001, Week 5
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August 2001, Week 1
July 2001, Week 5
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July 2001, Week 3
July 2001, Week 2
July 2001, Week 1
June 2001, Week 5
June 2001, Week 4
June 2001, Week 3
June 2001, Week 2
June 2001, Week 1
May 2001, Week 5
May 2001, Week 4
May 2001, Week 3
May 2001, Week 2
May 2001, Week 1
April 2001, Week 5
April 2001, Week 4
April 2001, Week 3
April 2001, Week 2
April 2001, Week 1
March 2001, Week 5
March 2001, Week 4
March 2001, Week 3
March 2001, Week 2
March 2001, Week 1
February 2001, Week 4
February 2001, Week 3
February 2001, Week 2
February 2001, Week 1
January 2001, Week 5
January 2001, Week 4
January 2001, Week 3
January 2001, Week 2
January 2001, Week 1
December 2000, Week 5
December 2000, Week 4
December 2000, Week 3
December 2000, Week 2
December 2000, Week 1
November 2000, Week 5
November 2000, Week 4
November 2000, Week 3
November 2000, Week 2
November 2000, Week 1
October 2000, Week 5
October 2000, Week 4
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October 2000, Week 1
September 2000, Week 5
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September 2000, Week 3
September 2000, Week 2
September 2000, Week 1
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June 2000, Week 5
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May 2000, Week 1
April 2000, Week 5
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April 2000, Week 3
April 2000, Week 2
April 2000, Week 1
March 2000, Week 5
March 2000, Week 4
March 2000, Week 3
March 2000, Week 2
March 2000, Week 1
February 2000, Week 5
February 2000, Week 4
February 2000, Week 3
February 2000, Week 2
February 2000, Week 1
January 2000, Week 5
January 2000, Week 4
January 2000, Week 3
January 2000, Week 2
January 2000, Week 1
December 1999, Week 5
December 1999, Week 4
December 1999, Week 3
December 1999, Week 2
December 1999, Week 1
November 1999, Week 5
November 1999, Week 4
November 1999, Week 3
November 1999, Week 2
November 1999, Week 1
October 1999, Week 5
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December 1998, Week 5
December 1998, Week 4
December 1998, Week 3
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November 1998, Week 5
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November 1998, Week 3
November 1998, Week 2
November 1998, Week 1
October 1998, Week 5
October 1998, Week 4
October 1998, Week 3
October 1998, Week 2
October 1998, Week 1
September 1998, Week 5
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September 1998, Week 3

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