LISTSERV mailing list manager LISTSERV 16.5

Help for PED-EM-L Archives


PED-EM-L Archives

PED-EM-L Archives


PED-EM-L@LISTSERV.BROWN.EDU


View:

Message:

[

First

|

Previous

|

Next

|

Last

]

By Topic:

[

First

|

Previous

|

Next

|

Last

]

By Author:

[

First

|

Previous

|

Next

|

Last

]

Font:

Proportional Font

LISTSERV Archives

LISTSERV Archives

PED-EM-L Home

PED-EM-L Home

PED-EM-L  February 2008

PED-EM-L February 2008

Subject:

Re: Needle cric

From:

Martin Herman <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Martin Herman <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Wed, 6 Feb 2008 16:52:30 -0600

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (247 lines)

Understand. Just would be interested in hearing from a surgeon or ENT
whether the infant cricoid can accommodate such an insult 



------------------------------------
Pediatric Emergency Specialists, P.C.
Martin Herman, M.D.,FAAP,FACEP
President
[log in to unmask]
PO box 637
Ellendale TN 38029
tel: 901 405 1407
fax: 901 405 1524
mobile: 901 219 9202 
------------------------------------

-----Original Message-----
From: Lisa Burns [mailto:[log in to unmask]] 
Sent: Wednesday, February 06, 2008 3:37 PM
To: Martin Herman
Subject: RE: Needle cric

Not per the manufacturer, it does come in an adult size, I think a 6.0
(not sure the exact size). The ID is equivalent to the ID of an ET tube
so term infants on up.

Lisa (Burns) Davidson,RN,BSN,CCRN

John C. Lincoln Deer Valley
Clinical Educator
Pediatric Services
ph: 623-879-5483
cell: 480-381-9934
email: [log in to unmask]
 
"What you leave behind is not what is engraved in stone monuments, but
what is woven into the lives of others."  Pericles
 
 

-----Original Message-----
From: Martin Herman [mailto:[log in to unmask]] 
Sent: Wednesday, February 06, 2008 12:34 PM
To: Lisa Burns
Subject: RE: Needle cric

Any age restriction on its use?


------------------------------------
Pediatric Emergency Specialists, P.C.
Martin Herman, M.D.,FAAP,FACEP
President
[log in to unmask]
PO box 637
Ellendale TN 38029
tel: 901 405 1407
fax: 901 405 1524
mobile: 901 219 9202 
------------------------------------

-----Original Message-----
From: Lisa Burns [mailto:[log in to unmask]] 
Sent: Wednesday, February 06, 2008 1:26 PM
To: Martin Herman
Subject: RE: Needle cric

We use the Melker Emergency Cricothyrotomy kit in our pediatric ED,
which has an ID of 3.5 mm, works well in lieu of needle or surgical
cricothyrotomy.

Lisa (Burns) Davidson,RN,BSN,CCRN

John C. Lincoln Deer Valley
Clinical Educator
Pediatric Services
ph: 623-879-5483
cell: 480-381-9934
email: [log in to unmask]
 
"What you leave behind is not what is engraved in stone monuments, but
what is woven into the lives of others."  Pericles
 
 

-----Original Message-----
From: Pediatric Emergency Medicine Discussion List
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Martin Herman
Sent: Wednesday, February 06, 2008 10:52 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Needle cric

Has anyone done a needle cricothyrotomy on anyone under 8? 

I believe that is the cut off age for this technique. So for a pt under
8 ,
what are your options? 

We have tried to learn and used a lighted stylette..
We are looking into getting a video assist devise like the
glide-o-scope. 

A difficult airway in a young child poses significant challenges. 

Marty

------------------------------------
Pediatric Emergency Specialists, P.C.
Martin Herman, M.D.,FAAP,FACEP
President
[log in to unmask]
PO box 637
Ellendale TN 38029
tel: 901 405 1407
fax: 901 405 1524
mobile: 901 219 9202 
------------------------------------
-----Original Message-----
From: Pediatric Emergency Medicine Discussion List
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Doc Holiday
Sent: Wednesday, February 06, 2008 4:59 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Needle cric

From: Erik Schobitz 
> Needle cric was performed with an 18 guage angiocath...briefly able to
oxygenate, but lost the needle cric while trying to re-start her heart -
she
unfortunately died.

--> My personal experience on this issue...
Please forgive the style. I am autistic and write things a bit more
"black &
white" than perhaps you are used to...

Based upon work in a "Level 1 Trauma Centre" equivalent in the UK and
experience since the late 80s, including various environments and
pre-hospital work. Also teach on ATLS, etc and thus try to keep up to
date...

- Needle cric has NO advantages over "proper" cric
- As you have already experienced, it does have a number of
disadvantages...

- Main causes for failure with needles:
   - It often produces a "core biopsy" of skin & tissue, which blocks
the
needle and thus fails. This may be overcome by having 0.5ml of saline in
a
syringe to flush it
   - It often blocks LATER by blood or secretions
   - Over-needle caths are flimsy and WILL kink
   - ALL THESE BLOCKAGES, at any stage, are OFTEN missed and go
unnoticed!!!
   - Many needles, designed to CUT through skin, have a long, sharp
bevel,
dangerous for the posterior internal aspects of the younger smaller
tracheas...
   - It only provides oxygenation, not allowing CO2 to be removed
   - High pressure required to oxygenate - with its dangers
   - Tough to monitor: usually no chest rise and no CO2 monitoring...
   - Difficult to secure (especially without kinking)... As in the case
mentioned...
- I will not bore you with how a needle has no cuff, like the proper
cric
kits do...

- There are a number of suitable task-specific cric kits, rather than
"adapting" a needle or angiocath for a task they are not designed for -
this
temporising measure was invented over 25 years ago, BEFORE all the
modern
kits and training became available. We should no longer be using 2nd
best
- ATLS still teaches both methods. The needle version being supposed to
"buy
time". There is the understandable (but mistaken) assumption, because we
are
still teaching it, that there must be some use for it. YES - if you do
not
possess the proper equipment (e.g. you work in some poor 3rd world
environment), then you can think needle cric
- Hope you're sitting down, but a lot of military and other pre-hospital
teaching is that definitive cric is even the choice BEFORE oral
intubation,
ESPCIALLY for non-experts in intubation. Think about it - intubation is
a
skill so much time is spent learning and practising and worrying about
the
difficulties and failures of. But finding the cric membrance and getting
something through it is not as tough as finding the cords! There is no
frequent problem with "visualisation" or secretions or bleeding in the
way... No problem with positioning in trauma patients. MUCH MUCH MUCH
easier
to teach new paramedics to do well than is intubation!

> Ugly situation all the way around but if you get to that point I
belive
your likelihood of survival is pretty low no matter what you do.

--> "Likelihood of survival"?
That's epidemiology! NOT emergency medicine...
You have a patient. You do your best. The statistics will take care of
themselves.
Which means that, if you THINK you need a DEFINITIVE AIRWAY, you might
as
well put one in. Then, at least, even in your case, if the patient does
unfortunately die, it's DEFINITELY NOT because some second-best device
(needle cric) has failed.
_________________________________________________________________
Get Hotmail on your mobile, text MSN to 63463!
http://mobile.uk.msn.com/pc/mail.aspx

For more information, send mail to [log in to unmask] with the
message: info PED-EM-L
The URL for the PED-EM-L Web Page is:
  http://www.brown.edu/Administration/Emergency_Medicine/ped-em-l.html

For more information, send mail to [log in to unmask] with the
message: info PED-EM-L
The URL for the PED-EM-L Web Page is:
  http://www.brown.edu/Administration/Emergency_Medicine/ped-em-l.html

--------------------
If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, or the
employee
or agent responsible to deliver to the intended recipient, you are
hereby
notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this
communication is strictly prohibited.  If you have received this
communication in error, please immediately forward the original message
back
to the sender and delete your copy of the email.

--------------------
If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, or the employee
or agent responsible to deliver to the intended recipient, you are hereby
notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this
communication is strictly prohibited.  If you have received this
communication in error, please immediately forward the original message back
to the sender and delete your copy of the email.

For more information, send mail to [log in to unmask] with the message: info PED-EM-L
The URL for the PED-EM-L Web Page is:
  http://www.brown.edu/Administration/Emergency_Medicine/ped-em-l.html

Top of Message | Previous Page | Permalink

Advanced Options


Options

Log In

Log In

Get Password

Get Password


Search Archives

Search Archives


Subscribe or Unsubscribe

Subscribe or Unsubscribe


Archives

October 2019
September 2019
August 2019
July 2019
June 2019
May 2019
April 2019
March 2019
February 2019
January 2019
December 2018
November 2018
October 2018
September 2018
August 2018
July 2018
June 2018
May 2018
April 2018
March 2018
February 2018
January 2018
December 2017
November 2017
October 2017
September 2017
August 2017
July 2017
June 2017
May 2017
April 2017
March 2017
February 2017
January 2017
December 2016
November 2016
October 2016
September 2016
August 2016
July 2016
June 2016
May 2016
April 2016
March 2016
February 2016
January 2016
December 2015
November 2015
October 2015
September 2015
August 2015
July 2015
June 2015
May 2015
April 2015
March 2015
February 2015
January 2015
December 2014
November 2014
October 2014
September 2014
August 2014
July 2014
June 2014
May 2014
April 2014
March 2014
February 2014
January 2014
December 2013
November 2013
October 2013
September 2013
August 2013
July 2013
June 2013
May 2013
April 2013
March 2013
February 2013
January 2013
December 2012
November 2012
October 2012
September 2012
August 2012
July 2012
June 2012
May 2012
April 2012
March 2012
February 2012
January 2012
December 2011
November 2011
October 2011
September 2011
August 2011
July 2011
June 2011
May 2011
April 2011
March 2011
February 2011
January 2011
December 2010
November 2010
October 2010
September 2010
August 2010
July 2010
June 2010
May 2010
April 2010
March 2010
February 2010
January 2010
December 2009
November 2009
October 2009
September 2009
August 2009
July 2009
June 2009
May 2009
April 2009
March 2009
February 2009
January 2009
December 2008
November 2008
October 2008
September 2008
August 2008
July 2008
June 2008
May 2008
April 2008
March 2008
February 2008
January 2008
December 2007
November 2007
October 2007
September 2007
August 2007
July 2007
June 2007
May 2007
April 2007
March 2007
February 2007
January 2007
December 2006
November 2006
October 2006
September 2006
August 2006
July 2006
June 2006
May 2006
April 2006
March 2006
February 2006
January 2006
December 2005
November 2005
October 2005
September 2005
August 2005
July 2005
June 2005
May 2005
April 2005
March 2005
February 2005
January 2005
December 2004
November 2004
October 2004
September 2004
August 2004
July 2004
June 2004
May 2004
April 2004
March 2004
February 2004
January 2004
December 2003
November 2003
October 2003
September 2003
August 2003
July 2003
June 2003
May 2003
April 2003
March 2003
February 2003
January 2003
December 2002
November 2002
October 2002
September 2002
August 2002
July 2002
June 2002
May 2002
April 2002
March 2002
February 2002
January 2002
December 2001
November 2001
October 2001
September 2001
August 2001
July 2001
June 2001
May 2001
April 2001
March 2001
February 2001
January 2001
December 2000
November 2000
October 2000
September 2000
August 2000
July 2000
June 2000
May 2000
April 2000
March 2000
February 2000
January 2000
December 1999
November 1999
October 1999
September 1999
August 1999
July 1999
June 1999
May 1999
April 1999
March 1999
February 1999
January 1999
December 1998
November 1998
October 1998
September 1998
August 1998
July 1998
June 1998
May 1998
April 1998
March 1998
February 1998
January 1998
December 1997
November 1997
October 1997
September 1997
August 1997
July 1997
June 1997
May 1997
April 1997
March 1997
February 1997
January 1997
December 1996
November 1996
October 1996
September 1996
August 1996
July 1996
June 1996
May 1996
April 1996
March 1996
February 1996
January 1996
December 1995
November 1995
October 1995
September 1995
August 1995
July 1995
June 1995
May 1995
April 1995
March 1995
February 1995
January 1995
December 1994
November 1994
October 1994
September 1994

ATOM RSS1 RSS2



LISTSERV.BROWN.EDU

CataList Email List Search Powered by the LISTSERV Email List Manager