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AUXLANG  March 2008, Week 1

AUXLANG March 2008, Week 1

Subject:

Re: Whole new dimensions of difficulty

From:

Kjell Rehnström <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

International Auxiliary Languages <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Sun, 2 Mar 2008 06:02:31 +0100

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (80 lines)

MacLeod Dave skrev:
> 2008/2/24, Kjell Rehnström <[log in to unmask]>:
>   
>> MacLeod Dave skrev:
>>
>>     
>>  > ? The English plural isn't simple at all. That's what I'd call a whole
>>  > new dimension of difficulty.
>>  >
>>  > If it were just an s all the time, it would simply be something to get
>>  > used to (and try as you might, you'll never be able to create a
>>  > language that people will simply have to get used to using).
>>  >
>>  >
>>
>> But even if a languages may have plurals they are not always used in the
>>  same way as in English. I remember vaguely how the teacher in school
>>  talked much about "people" and "cattle"; and then "sheep" that were not
>>  "sheeps", even if it could be "ships"!
>>
>>  Aspects in Slavic languages is hard for us foreigners to learn, but I
>>  must say that ordinary Poles, who said that they did not know anything
>>  about Polish grammar were real great at explaining to me how I should
>>  use the different aspects of verbs.
>>
>>  In the beginning, I think, one should learn them as lexical unities, you
>>  can e.g. "kill" in many ways, once, as a serial killer etc. and all the
>>  different "killings" have their own aspect. It's like navigating in a
>>  wood, you may have to klimb a tree to se how the terrain looks, in
>>  language learning you look into the grammar book, then you klimb down
>>  and beat your way through the shrubs, inn languages this is the
>>  practical usage.
>>
>>  A striking example where your own language can set traps for you is
>>  Swedish and Ido for me. The -ag- verbs, like "martelagi" are terribly
>>  irregular for me, as I can put a verb ending to some nouns (but not to
>>  others) and it is like learning an ethnic language. I think the best
>>  thing is to take it lexically even there. To my Swedish mind Esperanto
>>  if far more logical than Ido! This doesn't mean that a Swede cannot
>>  learn Ido, the person in question will just have to "think ido" and
>>  check in a dictionary.
>>
>>  Kjell R
>>
>>     
> I could see that, and especially when I look at Esperanto through my
> English point of view. However, when looking at it through my
> non-Indo-European languages I see a lot of other languages in Ido,
> like the Turkish -lemek / lamak:
>
> çekiç = hammer
> martelo = hammer
> çekiçlemek = to hammer
> martelagar = to hammer
> çekiçleme = hammering
> martelago = hammering
>
> çekiçmek would look weird (just like martelar, technically 'to be a
> hammer'), because it's just hammer+verb stem. Other verbs like
> fırçalamak (to brush, fırça alone just means a brush) are pretty easy
> to find. All the commonalities there are why I never agree when
> someone makes the claim that Ido is too logical - it's just that
> Indo-European languages seem to be unnaturally illogical, which is
> fine, but not a good basis to tell whether a language is truly
> artificial or not.
>
>   
Could it be that the Ido people lack the necessary phantasy? If "hammer" 
= "to use a hammer" is "martelagar", then to use a car would be 
"autagar". To my Swedish mind that is a quite legitimate form! Otherwise 
"beet with" can genate an "-ag-" verb, but not "go by". On the other 
hand Swedish cannot accept "*trainagar" = to go by train, but that seems 
to depend from the fact that the Swedish system just used "tåg" (train) 
from "take part in a procession", "march" or if it is an older meaning 
in analogy to German Zug (I guess from "ziehen"), tåg might be "tow" (?) 
in English). If so, Ido might permitt "trainagar". But the Swedish-Ido 
dictionary doesn't permit these formations, and they are of course right.

Kjell R

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