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AUXLANG  March 2008, Week 1

AUXLANG March 2008, Week 1

Subject:

Re: What the average newspaper reader in the UK....

From:

Antony Alexander <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

International Auxiliary Languages <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Fri, 7 Mar 2008 10:55:16 -0500

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (216 lines)

Jens Wilkinson <[log in to unmask]> wrote, Tue, 4 Mar 2008 02:36:51 -0800

> Actually, I tend to see it as irrelevant, but not
> because I think an IAL would be static. I think I've
> expressed my own view about this occasionally, but
> just to reiterate, I think that we as the auxlang
> community can make a fantastic contribution to
> spreading the initial, pidgin type language. But I
> think that once that is done, it will be out of our
> hands. And I tend to agree with you that a
> hypothetical world pidgin would move in a direction of
> being more synthetic (as we see with creoles), but it
> would require no guiding hand. In fact, it would
> probably be fairly unreceptive to a guiding hand at
> that point.

I understand where you are coming from here, Jens,
but I do believe a co-ordinating committee could work
- and work well - if it were internationally representative,
guided by the latest scientific research, and in a 
consultative relationship with all interested parties. 
One might pose the question: "What would happen if there
were no steering committee?". Well, what do you think?
I think a split would be inevitable, one way or another.

I agree that an ILC would be a very difficult proposition to
organise, but by no means impossible. Language is an
expression of culture, so not just linguists should be 
involved.

> I was thinking of the example of spelling reform. In
> the US, some influential people tried to promote
> spelling reform, and some of it caught on, but most of
> it didn't. I'm not saying anything in favor or against
> it, but just wanted to point out that people often do
> not accept what influential people try to get them to
> do in language terms. 

I think English spelling reform is a very different process 
from the construction and guidance of a new constructed 
IAL. Although English is currently the main international 
language, globally speaking, it is to a large extent a 
national language forced to take on an international role 
in the absence of a satisfactory alternative.

A characteristic of national languages is that they are 
used to exclude as much as to include. Obviously, they 
exclude non-speakers by definition, but irregularity has 
also had a “shibboleth” function in the preservation of 
class hierarchies (i.e. in identifying those without the 
combination of conversation in the “right” circles and 
the “right” reading). 

I use the present perfect tense because, although this 
device has largely been made irrelevant by both changed 
attitudes and the electronic media (which allows one to 
eavesdrop on more or less any type of conversation 
at the touch of a button) there is still an appetite for it, 
and that is probably a large part of why wholesale 
orthographic regularisation of “national” tongues such 
as English continues to be resisted.

On the other hand an IAL should be inclusive by 
definition, so there should be no objection to a steering 
committee mandated to perpetuate that inclusiveness. 
Obviously, great pains would be taken to prevent a 
global IAL (if that isn’t a tautology nowadays) splitting 
“horizontally” into regional dialects, but there is another 
danger: a “vertical” split into class-based sociolects or 
registers. For that reason I think it essential that the 
“Official” IAL should, at any one time, be restricted to 
the “basilect” or lowest rung of the hierarchy (as I have 
explained in my website) - so that nobody (within 
reasonable limits) should feel excluded.

> I suppose it's an interesting question, but I doubt
> it. The Greeks had many gods, and they had a fairly
> synthetic language. If there is any connection, it's
> probably something about certain languages and
> monotheism "traveling well".

There is actually plenty of evidence that the glories 
of the Athenian Republic coincided with a nascent 
monotheism. A number of Greek writers indicate this, 
not least Plato. If I remember correctly Socrates 
travelled to the Holy Land and learned about 
monotheism at the court of King Solomon. 


Jens Wilkinson <[log in to unmask]> wrote Wed, 5 Mar 2008 18:26:58 -0800

> I think the point that Steve was making (and that I
> mostly agree with) is that even individual languages
> do not "progress" or "decay", that they always change
> but the changes cannot be said to be good or bad. For
> example, a language may lose difficult sounds, but the
> words will become longer as a result. Is that progress
> or a decay? The language may lose inflections but as a
> result the word order may become more fixed. It is
> hard to make a qualitative judgment on whether it is
> good or bad. I think the exception, which you brought
> up later in your note, is about regularity. At least
> for an IAL, regularity is a good thing. For first
> language learners, irregularity in verb forms, for
> example, is not a problem, but it does raise the
> learning curve for L2 learners. 

“Decay” might be the wrong word; “regression” 
might be better, I think, since “going backwards” 
isn’t necessarily a bad thing. If a culture is regressing 
its language had better regress too, if people are to 
continue communicating verbally (rather than via 
violence, for instance).

And yes, the two examples you gave I would classify as
regression. Loss of phonemes reduces the range of 
vocal expression; longer words take longer to say - a
critical criterion in the aggregate when time and breath
are short. Similarly, synthetic grammar is more condensed,
so it allows more to be said in a shorter time - if people 
are sufficiently acculturated to use it properly. Chinese and
other grammars are more analytic, but context and ellipsis
are great condensers, and no lexicon has been more honed
by Zipf's Law in order to spare breath than the ancient 
Chinese vocabulary in conjunction with the use of tones.

Loss of inflections in favour of fixed word order is also
a technical regression IMHO, for similar reasons,
including the detriment of poetical possibility. Of course,
this is part of the reason Zamenhof wanted the inflections
kept in, though I think the imperatives of a Level 1 IAL
should trump such considerations and keep them out to
begin with.

But I really wanted to challenge your belief that “For first 
language learners, irregularity in verb forms, for example, 
is not a problem,...”. As I’ve mentioned here before, this old 
chestnut - popularised by Prof. Mario Pei among others - just 
doesn’t seem to be true. Let me quote a passage from “Lango” 
http://bahai-library.com/books/lango/lang26.html#p 
I’ve posted here before:
 
“.....the Turkish inflectional system is fairly intricate, but
 Turkish children normally master it well before the age 
of two because it is completely regular and straightforward . 
An oft-quoted illustration combines the noun "el" ("hand") 
with the inflections "-im" (first person possessive), "-ler" 
(plural) and "-de" (locative):

 el   "hand"

 elim   "my hand"

 elde   "in hand"

 elimde "in my hand"

 eller  "hands"

 ellerim   "my hands"

 ellerde   "in hands"

 ellerimde "in my hands"

 Similarly, relative clauses (i.e. those beginning "who,
 which or that" in English) are so straightforward in 
Serbo-Croat that most Serbian and Croatian children 
have likewise mastered them by the age of two. 
Other languages also have grammatical features of 
exemplary regularity which children learn to use without 
difficulty. The international language committee will no 
doubt look at all such instances in order to assemble 
the best grammar from all sources.

 An interesting fact about the above two examples 
is that their converse shows some of the worst 
grammatical practice. Both Turkish relative clauses 
and Serbo-Croat inflections are incoherent and 
excessively complicated. The children of these nations 
struggle to make sense of them, and do not normally 
use them competently until about the age of five. 
This conjunction between the regular and 
straightforward and the confusing and opaque is 
typical of national languages. For instance, in English 
we see a relatively simple grammar conjoined with 
a relatively difficult orthography, and in Finnish and 
Hungarian the reverse. There appears to be an inherent 
shibboleth function in national tongues, seemingly 
designed to identify foreigners and/or those who have 
not mastered the language properly.”

Such observations contradict the oft-repeated saying
that it doesn't really matter which language is chosen
as the IAL since the rising generation will readily 
learn it anyway. They are also a vital consideration
if the JPVP is valid on the global scale and the IAL will
therefore gradually become the world's mother tongue.

> I'm not certain what you mean by "best parts". 

The above is an example of what I mean. Thus, the 
ILC would be better advised adopting inflections and 
relative clauses on the Turkish and Serbo-Croat model 
respectively rather than the reciprocal arrangement. 

> Here again, I'm not sure what it means to be
> "linguistically inferior". Do you mean that they have
> a smaller vocabulary, for example?

Yes. Smaller vocabulary and grammatical range, 
reduced phonology and prosody, and so on. 


Antony Alexander         http://langx.org

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January 2004, Week 1
December 2003, Week 5
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December 2003, Week 3
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December 2003, Week 1
November 2003, Week 5
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October 2003, Week 5
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January 2002, Week 1
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December 2001, Week 3
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October 2001, Week 1
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June 2001, Week 5
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April 2001, Week 5
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April 2001, Week 1
March 2001, Week 5
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March 2001, Week 3
March 2001, Week 2
March 2001, Week 1
February 2001, Week 4
February 2001, Week 3
February 2001, Week 2
February 2001, Week 1
January 2001, Week 5
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January 2001, Week 3
January 2001, Week 2
January 2001, Week 1
December 2000, Week 5
December 2000, Week 4
December 2000, Week 3
December 2000, Week 2
December 2000, Week 1
November 2000, Week 5
November 2000, Week 4
November 2000, Week 3
November 2000, Week 2
November 2000, Week 1
October 2000, Week 5
October 2000, Week 4
October 2000, Week 3
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October 2000, Week 1
September 2000, Week 5
September 2000, Week 4
September 2000, Week 3
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September 2000, Week 1
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April 2000, Week 4
April 2000, Week 3
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December 1999, Week 5
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December 1998, Week 5
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December 1997, Week 5
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