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AUXLANG Home

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AUXLANG  March 2008, Week 1

AUXLANG March 2008, Week 1

Subject:

Re: What the average newspaper reader in the UK....

From:

steve rice <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

International Auxiliary Languages <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Fri, 7 Mar 2008 19:03:56 -0800

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (193 lines)

I could technically just ditto Dave. But there are
some points of interest here that he didn't touch on.

--- In [log in to unmask], Antony Alexander
<antonyalexander9@...> wrote:

> With all due respect, I think youíre both somewhat 
> missing the point. The auxlang movement is 
> supposed to be dealing with the real world, in which

> the auxlang of the future will be created by an 
> internationally-representative committee - assuming 
> of course that apathy doesnít prevail, and an
existing 
> language such as English or Chinese wins by default.

One of the silliest remarks I've encountered recently,
and I'm covering political candidates for a newspaper.
But let's enjoy that for a moment: in the "real
world," an "internationally-representative committee"
is going to save us all a lot of trouble by creating a
WAL.

Cosmic. Can I have pixie dust on mine?

1. Whenever a committee does practically anything, the
results are bad. There's something about human nature
that just doesn't tolerate central planning. Think of
how communism ushered in peace, prosperity, and warm
fuzzies for everyone, especially the guys in the
gulags.

2. Fortunately, however, in the real "real world," any
such committee would sit on its collective duff for a
few decades, commissioning studies and making
pronouncements for as long as their budget held. If it
was cut, they might throw something together at the
last minute, but it likely wouldn't help anyone but
comedians looking for a cheap laugh.

3. Where is this committee, anyway? It's had a lot of
chances to materialize. I also see no sign we're
really becoming the kind of highly-advanced species
that's going to get together for a global group hug
and kumbaya session.
 
> But if this assumption is correct I think it can be 
> safely concluded that the auxlang will be formed 
> by a committee and not by a solitary linguistic
genius. 

That's a pity. Solitary genius at least has the
advantage of producing something with internal
consistency similar to that of natlangs.

> The latter route has been tested to destruction over

> the centuries. It has produced a plethora of
linguistic 
> ideas, of varying quality, and continues to do so
over 
> at Conlang. However, it has signally failed to
produce 
> a viable language.

I suppose the trick here is defining "viable." Eo
seems to "vi" a lot, so I'd call it viable. But I'm
deceived by the native literature and corpus in
general, I guess.
 
> Esperanto came quite close, and would have succeeded

> IMHO if the Academy had accepted that the time limit

> for preserving the Fundamento expired with rejection
by 
> the League of Nations, and had then determined to 
> restructure the language for mass acceptance in all 
> countries whilst it retained the momentum. 

I'll assume that this isn't humor.

1. The League of Nations was even wimpier than the UN,
so even a unanimous vote in favor of Eo probably
wouldn't have done much more than give Eo a good PR
boost. Maybe it would've been enough.

2. The main problem with Eo was that it was an
ARTIFICIAL (not REAL) language. Specifically, it
wasn't French. The civil war with the Idists didn't
help either.

3. If you ever bother to read what Dr. Z had to say on
the topic, he wasn't against change as such. He was
against PREMATURE change--change just because someone
unimportant wanted it. If the LoN had accepted Eo in
principle but asked for changes, Eists probably
would've gone for it. Dr. Z would've.

> Compared with you two I am no linguist at all,
though 
> Iím probably more of a scientist (at least, thatís
the 
> subject I studied at university). At any rate, it
has long 
> been my opinion that the auxlang movement should be 
> put on a scientific footing.

Great! Especially considering that (as has been
mentioned here a zillion times already) it's not a
scientific problem so much as an engineering problem.
I've been around both. They don't really like each
other.
 
> Every new movement is started off by empiricists - 
> indeed, thereís normally no other way - but at some 
> point scientists have to take over. Unless the
scientific 
> method prevails it is just one opinion against
another.

Well, that explains a lot about how Britain and the US
wound up banning slavery--it was all the work of
selfless, unsung scientists!

Actually, about a hundred years ago there were a fair
number of scientists willing to solve our problems
through eugenics, which would've gotten rid of all
those annoying non-white people cluttering up the
world. (I'm deeply unscientific and find the idea
repellent, but your science may vary.)

> So when the internationally-representative language 
> committee is in session whose views re Turkish and 
> Serbo-Croat inflections and relative clauses etc.
are 
> going to be heeded - yours, or the peer-reviewed 
> and professorially-endorsed conclusions of a group 
> of linguistics post-graduates using scientific
methods
> with proper controls?

As Dave noted, we haven't seen the actual quote, etc.,
so there's a fair amount of blind acceptance involved
here. Also, you might be interested to know that some
linguistic findings reverse polarity every few
decades. We could very well be in at that point.
 
> But if you think the academics have got it wrong on
any
> point, as sometimes happens, the same scientific
method
> decrees that you should say so and provide
convincing 
> evidence to the contrary. 

Wow! The scientific method has taken control, and I
never heard about it! Actual, scientific method would
involve a direct quote rather than a paraphrase, and
it would also acknowledge sources and
counter-arguments. If the one person who has now
metamorphosed into the entire linguistic establishment
published all this in a peer-reviewed journal, what
was the response? This is actual science, not simply
an appeal to (dubious) authority, which is what you're
using.

And for the same reason the 
> international language committee should maintain
lines
> of communication with the public, and consultative 
> status with low-level institutions - otherwise the 
> scientific method would be traduced, and we would
see just
> another oppressive organisation listening to
yes-men.

See above on how the putative committee would actually
work. It would maintain lines of communication with
the public ("We're still here, and we're important for
no obvious reason. Please don't cut our funding!") and
consultative status with low-level institutions
(bookies, dealers, and pimps). "Just another
oppressive organisation listening to yes-men"? That
does sound accurate.

Steve


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