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AUXLANG  March 2008, Week 1

AUXLANG March 2008, Week 1

Subject:

Re: What the average newspaper reader in the UK....

From:

Jens Wilkinson <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

International Auxiliary Languages <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Tue, 4 Mar 2008 02:36:51 -0800

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (195 lines)

--- Antony Alexander <[log in to unmask]>
wrote:



>
>This is the AUXLANG forum and weíre principally 
>in the business of discussing the needs of L2
speakers, 
>arenít we? I agree with you that they tend to find 
>synthetic grammar significantly more difficult than 
>analytic on the whole, and mainly for reason that
their 
>own L1 grammar is often analytic. For instance, 
>experience has shown that students from mainland 
>SE Asia where the majority of the languages are 
>analytic (Malay being an exception) tend to struggle 
>with Esperanto, as do English speakers for the same
reason.

I'm not sure if I'm really disagreeing with you very
much, but I think that analytical languages tend to be
easier even for people whose L1 is synthetic. The
evidence is in the pidgin languages that we like to
study. When Japanese and Korean speakers, from
synthetic languages, were moved to Hawaii, they
transformed English into an even more analytical form
than it already had. And I think the same is true for
speakers of for example Indoamerican languages, who
transformed the European languages they learned into
less synthetic forms. 

>However, the 
>upper levels of the hierarchy are not intended just
for
>"elites" - they are for everyone - even as during
>great civilisations of the past the masses have 

I understand what you are saying. I should try to
avoid reading too much into what you write. 

>Itís a very important issue IMHO. Assuming the IAL 
>is going to change over time, as living languages do,

>which direction is it likely to take? Some might
regard 
>this question as irrelevant, since they would see the

>IAL as something fairly static. 

Actually, I tend to see it as irrelevant, but not
because I think an IAL would be static. I think I've
expressed my own view about this occasionally, but
just to reiterate, I think that we as the auxlang
community can make a fantastic contribution to
spreading the initial, pidgin type language. But I
think that once that is done, it will be out of our
hands. And I tend to agree with you that a
hypothetical world pidgin would move in a direction of
being more synthetic (as we see with creoles), but it
would require no guiding hand. In fact, it would
probably be fairly unreceptive to a guiding hand at
that point.

I was thinking of the example of spelling reform. In
the US, some influential people tried to promote
spelling reform, and some of it caught on, but most of
it didn't. I'm not saying anything in favor or against
it, but just wanted to point out that people often do
not accept what influential people try to get them to
do in language terms.  

>
>Iím encouraged that you can see the possibilities of 
>the JPVP at the global level, Jens. 

Yes, we do agree on this, though I see it as an
inevitable process once a jargon or pidgin becomes
accepted. 

>However, I think it would be a complex synthetic 
>language, because that has been the more popular 
>and enduring model. It seems that synthetic language 
>has the greatest economy of expression vis-a-vis 
>expenditure of breath. Also, I find myself wondering
> whether there is a connection between synthetic 
>grammar and monotheism, and that is why 
>Chinese provides a counter-example. 

I suppose it's an interesting question, but I doubt
it. The Greeks had many gods, and they had a fairly
synthetic language. If there is any connection, it's
probably something about certain languages and
monotheism "traveling well". 

Also, I'm not certain that synthetic languages are
more enduring. They might be, but it may not be
because of language characteristics. It may have
something to do with the users. For example, Latin
still lasts today, because of its prestige. But Sabir
is lost, partly because it was spoken by merchants and
sailors who had not desire to preserve it. 
>
>But anyway, isnít Chinese now synthesising at a slow 
>pace, and therefore moving in the same direction? 
>I know very little about Chinese, but Iím led to
believe 
>that Classical Chinese was a lot more isolating than 
>the present language. Yes, present-day Chinese still 
>has its morpheme isolates, but Iíve read that itís 
>more common to find words as di- or tri- or even 
>quadri-syllable lexemes. Chinese might still be 
>technically analytic, without inflections - but could

>not this agglutination be a sort of first stage on 
>the road to synthesis?

It may be, but it's a pretty complex issue and I'm not
really sure about it. I do know that there are people
who know a lot more about Chinese than I do who are
debating this point. 



>Although I havenít put it in quite these terms
before, 
>I believe the basic error of Esperanto was to begin 
>at the level of lexemes rather than at the beginning.

>This is important because there are many peoples 
>whose linguistic development is nearer to the
beginning 
>of this evolution than Esperanto is. So what is
needed, 
>I think, is a sort of ďprequelĒ to Esperanto.

I think it's true, but I don't know if it's about
people's linguistic development, because most people
learning Esperanto are not children. 

I think it comes back to L2 acquisition. When I learn
a new language, I find it difficult to remember rules.
I find it easier to just learn words. Which is partly
why foreigners tend to speak funny in any language. 
>
>Incidentally, Jens - a propos an earlier comment 
>of yours which I failed to respond to - Iím well 
>aware that many peoples called primitive or 
>underdeveloped (though not by me) have very 
>sophisticated languages. However, I wouldnít 
>necessarily put all basilect dialects and creoles etc

>in that category - and as for the politically-correct

>notion that every language or dialect is as good 
>as any other, Iím sorry if you disagree but I donít 
>subscribe to it, 

Using "politically correct" seems to imply, to me,
that the person is making an argument based on an
ideological belief rather than an examination of
reality. In any case, though, I don't totally
disagree, but I don't totally agree either. You
mention creoles, and there I agree with you. I don't
agree with you with regard to tribal languages. About
dialects, I'm not sure. I think it's true that people
tend to simplify inflections in slang type speech, and
certainly I'd be more careful about "proper" English
when making a speech than when speaking to friends in
a bar. So the basilect/acrolect could be true I
suppose.  

>Apart from that there are features of Chinese, 
>including its tones, which are too advanced for a 
>Level 1 language in my opinion - and for no reason 
>except grammatical elaboration. Yes, Chinese relies 
>upon context more than highly-synthetic languages - 
>and context, of course, provides a lot of grammar - 
>but I still believe there is more grammar in there 
>(the plethora of grammatical particles for instance) 
>than would be necessary for a Level 1 IAL. 
>Please correct me if Iím wrong.

No, I completely agree with you. Chinese is not always
logical and regular. It is complex and idiosyncratic
like any other natural language. 

Jens Wilkinson
Neo Patwa language: http://patwa.pbwiki.com


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