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AUXLANG  March 2008, Week 1

AUXLANG March 2008, Week 1

Subject:

Re: Neutrality

From:

[log in to unmask]

Reply-To:

International Auxiliary Languages <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Wed, 5 Mar 2008 18:48:24 -0500

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (156 lines)

> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of steve rice

> > Vocabulary isn't the only part, but is still of
> > great importance
> > because it's easy to create a syntax and system of
> > word-building
> > that's easy to learn and use.  Vocabulary is the
> > single most
> > time-consuming part of learning a language. 
> 
> And that's why Eo, Ido, et al. minimize the burden
> with affixes. If their lexicons were better designed,
> they could allow users to operate well enough with
> only a few hundred forms, certainly under a thousand:
> just combine Eo and Interglossa. (Or Eo and LFN, to
> some extent.)

True, but any language could get by with a small lexicon if it was
"better designed".   So far the only decent list I've found for
creating a minimalist vocabulary is the gismu list for Lojban.
Euroclones like E-o or Ido do reduce things, but not as much as they
could.  By using almost all European vocabulary, they are also
creating a bias toward European semantic arrangements.  Lojban isn't
"perfect" but the meanings of the gismu are well-defined, but I have
found a few that could have been eliminated.

> [cut]
>  
> > > There's also a large assumption that
> > > everybody speaks just their own mother tongue,
> > can't pronounce ...

> > Just because someone speaks another language,
> > doesn't mean they
> > speak it well.  Your L1 is the foundation of your
> > speech habits.
> 
> How well do you have to speak English to know what
> "good" means? We've seen this before: a false
> dichotomy assuming that only people who have mastered
> a language know any of its words. It's simply not
> true. If I use the word "manga" to mean "comic book"
> (not quite what it means in Japanese, of course), many
> Americans and Europeans will understand immediately,
> even if they know nothing about Japanese proper. How
> many Americans know what "casa" means even if they
> can't speak Spanish? Or "Hasta la vista"?

Know a few words doesn't mean you "know" the language.  Let's put it
another way.  How many Westerners know what that "good" is "hao" in
Mandarin?   Yes, you can find a few words here and there that have
some type of familiarity around the world.  Honestly, I've seen the
word "manga" and couldn't tell you what it means, other than I know
it is somehow associated with those cheap-looking Japanese comics.
So I can make the association if I was learning it.  "Hasta la
vista" may be known as a phrase but I'll bet there aren't many who
could break it down into its parts.  Growing up in Southern
California, it wasn't that unusual for a Spanish word or phrase to
find its way into casual conversation even by monoglots.  I haven't
lived there for many years now, and actually asked for a "cerveza"
one night at one of my watering holes only to get a "huh?" from the
waitress.  Things are a bit different when you are farther away from
the border.


> The logic produces a contrdiction anyway: If I can't
> know any words in Turkish until I learn Turkish, how
> can I possibly learn Turkish without picking up some
> of its words?
> 
> I think we can safely assume that a number of basic
> English words have been taught to or assimilated by a
> large number of earthlings. That's a good starting
> point.

It's safe to assume that there are a few words that have made it
around the globe but number is still fairly small.  I wouldn't a yak
herder from Uzbekistan to know much English though he may have
picked up a few words of Russian.


> > The point of an auxlang is to provide people with
> > *one* simple
> > language to learn so they don't have to struggle
> > with learning
> > "someone else's" language.  To much pandering to a
> > single group of
> > speakers is likely to insult everyone else.
> 
> But in the real, modern world a lot of people DO know
> another language, or at least they know a Western
> language. But the odds are really good that they
> haven't *mastered* that other language. So they know a
> bit of the language (some basic grammar and
> vocabulary), but they need something easier to work
> with. Doesn't that sound like a starting point?

 The *goal* is to give people a *single* second language which will
remove their need for the others.  IE languages account for about
40% of the world's L1 population, but 40% is still a minority and
not all IE languages are Western languages.  

Just because someone speaks a second language, doesn't mean they
don't still have the habits of their L1 still in play.  A person's
primary language is *the* language that defines most of their
speaking habits and knowledge.  

The starting point needs to assume the worst case scenario, not the
ideal.  In the ideal world we'd have minds capable of absorbing new
language skills fast enough to have no need for an auxlang.



> [cut]
> > 
> > That is actually a big problem with "Euroclones",
> > they aren't just
> > biased in favor of Europeans, but biased toward
> > Latino-Romance.  At
> > least Esperanto and Ido have a few Germanic awords
> > for good measure,
> > though none of them really do the Slavic languages
> > justice.  
> 
> You want to see the Slavic languages hanged from a
> tall tree? Eo and Ido also have a fair amount of
> English, but I'll admit that an English core is simple
> realism these days.

Actually I don't think they have enough English, but in all fairness
they were created at a time when English was just one of several
major European languages.  Now   that it has reached some type of
super-language status, I'd say there is good cause to include a lot
of well-known English words in and auxlang.  That still doesn't mean
the others should be ignored.


> > If you want true neutrality, without any linguistic
> > baggage, then I
> > suggest the a priori approach.   
> > 
> I've advocated the a priori approach for years, but
> it's really hard to do right. The taxonomic approach
> is a dead end. It's better to have a system of
> associations. I still think the basic idea of suma was
> sound, though the lexicon was poorly chosen.

I started on an oligosynthetic tact a few months ago for my loglan.
I was going to assign roots at random but then got an idea to try to
create morphemes from phonosemantic universals.  I spent a lot of
time looking for research on the subject only to find very little.
What I did have was lost in last week's hard drive crash, so I'm
going to have to start that project over completely,  ... if I ever
get the time.   Maybe sometime next week when I'm sitting in hotel
room dying of boredom I'll pick up some of these other projects.

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