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AUXLANG Home

AUXLANG  March 2008, Week 1

AUXLANG March 2008, Week 1

Subject:

Re: Neutrality

From:

steve rice <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

International Auxiliary Languages <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Wed, 5 Mar 2008 21:38:13 -0800

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (236 lines)

--- [log in to unmask] wrote:

> > [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of
> steve rice
> 
> > And that's why Eo, Ido, et al. minimize the burden
> > with affixes. If their lexicons were better
> designed,
> > they could allow users to operate well enough with
> > only a few hundred forms, certainly under a
> thousand:
> > just combine Eo and Interglossa. (Or Eo and LFN,
> to
> > some extent.)
> 
> True, but any language could get by with a small
> lexicon if it was
> "better designed".   So far the only decent list
> I've found for
> creating a minimalist vocabulary is the gismu list
> for Lojban.
> Euroclones like E-o or Ido do reduce things, but not
> as much as they
> could.  By using almost all European vocabulary,
> they are also
> creating a bias toward European semantic
> arrangements.  Lojban isn't
> "perfect" but the meanings of the gismu are
> well-defined, but I have
> found a few that could have been eliminated.

But you were arguing earlier that word forms or labels
are of mostly mnemonic value. Here you're acting as
though European forms entail European meanings. I tend
to use anglo-romance labels for my non-IE concept
list. Where would that put me? (Remember my earlier
thought experiment about relexing the Chinese or
Indonesian Babel text with Interlingua roots and vice
versa: how much do the forms matter?) Eo, courtesy of
its emphasis on relatively free compounding, does very
non-IE things with its generally IE vocabulary as
well.
 
> > [cut]
> > How well do you have to speak English to know what
> > "good" means? We've seen this before: a false
> > dichotomy assuming that only people who have
> mastered
> > a language know any of its words. It's simply not
> > true. If I use the word "manga" to mean "comic
> book"
> > (not quite what it means in Japanese, of course),
> many
> > Americans and Europeans will understand
> immediately,
> > even if they know nothing about Japanese proper.
> How
> > many Americans know what "casa" means even if they
> > can't speak Spanish? Or "Hasta la vista"?
> 
> Know a few words doesn't mean you "know" the
> language.  Let's put it
> another way.  How many Westerners know what that
> "good" is "hao" in
> Mandarin?   Yes, you can find a few words here and
> there that have
> some type of familiarity around the world. 

How many know "good" is "da" in Welsh? The question's
every bit as relevant. I never asserted that Chinese
is taught to many kids in many places, though it's
probably my fault for bringing in Spanish. What I
meant was that even if you've only had some English in
your childhood and couldn't manage a conversation to
save your life, you can probably still recognize a
number of words. If we do fairly well with passive
recognition of foreign phrases, presumably those with
even slight schooling will do even better.

> Honestly, I've seen the
> word "manga" and couldn't tell you what it means,
> other than I know
> it is somehow associated with those cheap-looking
> Japanese comics.
> So I can make the association if I was learning it. 
> "Hasta la
> vista" may be known as a phrase but I'll bet there
> aren't many who
> could break it down into its parts.  Growing up in
> Southern
> California, it wasn't that unusual for a Spanish
> word or phrase to
> find its way into casual conversation even by
> monoglots.  I haven't
> lived there for many years now, and actually asked
> for a "cerveza"
> one night at one of my watering holes only to get a
> "huh?" from the
> waitress.  Things are a bit different when you are
> farther away from
> the border.

It might be worthwhile (though very difficult) to
produce a pop culture answer to Interglossa and Glosa.
In both cases, the idea was to take relatively common
greco-latin vocabulary and use it as memory hooks:
biblio-graphy means "book-writing," so "bibli[o]"
means "book" and "grafi/o" means "write [-ing]."

So consider this: What is the international word for
"empty"? Or how many people know "hand" or "mano"? But
how many people know the word "karate"? Just say,
"kara-te" means "empty-hand" (unarmed), so "kara" is
our word for "empty" and "te" is "hand." Even though
most people won't know the original meaning of
"karate," this will give them a memory hook, and it
can also provide some non-IE vocabulary.

> > I think we can safely assume that a number of
> basic
> > English words have been taught to or assimilated
> by a
> > large number of earthlings. That's a good starting
> > point.
> 
> It's safe to assume that there are a few words that
> have made it
> around the globe but number is still fairly small. 
> I wouldn't a yak
> herder from Uzbekistan to know much English though
> he may have
> picked up a few words of Russian.

I wouldn't expect a yak-herder to care about auxlangs
and global communication, either. About the only way
you're going to get him to care is to put a gun to his
head, and you can probably make him pick up a fair
amount of Ygyde by such means, so Eo or some other
old-school auxlang would also work.

But again, the point is that a lot of kids are being
taught English, so some basic vocabulary, which is
most of what we need, should already be available. 
> 
> > > The point of an auxlang is to provide people
> with
> > > *one* simple
> > > language to learn so they don't have to struggle
> > > with learning
> > > "someone else's" language.  To much pandering to
> a
> > > single group of
> > > speakers is likely to insult everyone else.
> > 
> > But in the real, modern world a lot of people DO
> know
> > another language, or at least they know a Western
> > language. But the odds are really good that they
> > haven't *mastered* that other language. So they
> know a
> > bit of the language (some basic grammar and
> > vocabulary), but they need something easier to
> work
> > with. Doesn't that sound like a starting point?
> 
>  The *goal* is to give people a *single* second
> language which will
> remove their need for the others.  IE languages
> account for about
> 40% of the world's L1 population, but 40% is still a
> minority and
> not all IE languages are Western languages.  

And so we begin with our goal. It does make problem
solving a lot easier.

Problem: achieving immortality.
Solution: Well, I'm alive right now, which is half the
battle. Problem solved!

But what if we try to achieve conditions in which no
one will need to learn a second natlang? That doesn't
mean it's where we start or where we pretend to be,
just that we work toward it, even if that means
acknowledging that currently those involved in global
matters typically have at least some knowledge of a
second language.
 
> Just because someone speaks a second language,
> doesn't mean they
> don't still have the habits of their L1 still in
> play.  A person's
> primary language is *the* language that defines most
> of their
> speaking habits and knowledge.  
> 
> The starting point needs to assume the worst case
> scenario, not the
> ideal.  In the ideal world we'd have minds capable
> of absorbing new
> language skills fast enough to have no need for an
> auxlang.
> 
The starting point needs to be current reality. Not a
fantasy world where everyone is just waiting for a
chance to get involved in global matters, but one
where the vast majority of people just plain don't
care, so we target those who do. That also means that
instead of targeting several billion people, we
probably target perhaps one billion, probably fewer.
And most of them have some knowledge of English,
though not mastery.

So we target them. If we can get them to adopt an
auxlang, the next generation will have an easier time
learning it than English or whatever other natlang,
and the audience may widen. (I doubt it, but it's
possible.)

So the goals are:

1. The Auxlang Epiphany--get people in the target
audience to recognize the validity of auxlangs.
2. Work to introduce auxlangs into the international
fora so their inherent advantages over natlangs will
become obvious.

From there market forces take over.

Steve


      ____________________________________________________________________________________
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December 2004, Week 5
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December 2003, Week 5
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December 2003, Week 1
November 2003, Week 5
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November 2003, Week 1
October 2003, Week 5
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January 2003, Week 1
December 2002, Week 5
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November 2002, Week 1
October 2002, Week 5
October 2002, Week 4
October 2002, Week 3
October 2002, Week 2
October 2002, Week 1
September 2002, Week 5
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January 2002, Week 5
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November 2001, Week 5
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November 2001, Week 1
October 2001, Week 5
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October 2001, Week 3
October 2001, Week 2
October 2001, Week 1
September 2001, Week 5
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September 2001, Week 2
September 2001, Week 1
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August 2001, Week 2
August 2001, Week 1
July 2001, Week 5
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July 2001, Week 3
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July 2001, Week 1
June 2001, Week 5
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April 2001, Week 5
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April 2001, Week 1
March 2001, Week 5
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March 2001, Week 3
March 2001, Week 2
March 2001, Week 1
February 2001, Week 4
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February 2001, Week 2
February 2001, Week 1
January 2001, Week 5
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January 2001, Week 3
January 2001, Week 2
January 2001, Week 1
December 2000, Week 5
December 2000, Week 4
December 2000, Week 3
December 2000, Week 2
December 2000, Week 1
November 2000, Week 5
November 2000, Week 4
November 2000, Week 3
November 2000, Week 2
November 2000, Week 1
October 2000, Week 5
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October 2000, Week 3
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October 2000, Week 1
September 2000, Week 5
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September 2000, Week 3
September 2000, Week 2
September 2000, Week 1
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April 2000, Week 5
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April 2000, Week 3
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February 2000, Week 1
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December 1999, Week 5
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February 1999, Week 1
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January 1999, Week 3
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December 1998, Week 5
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March 1998, Week 5
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December 1997, Week 5
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