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AUXLANG  March 2008, Week 1

AUXLANG March 2008, Week 1

Subject:

Re: Whole new dimensions of difficulty

From:

MacLeod Dave <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

International Auxiliary Languages <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Sun, 2 Mar 2008 19:14:38 +0900

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (93 lines)

2008/3/2, Kjell Rehnström <[log in to unmask]>:
> MacLeod Dave skrev:
>
> > 2008/2/24, Kjell Rehnström <[log in to unmask]>:
>  >
>  >> MacLeod Dave skrev:
>  >>
>  >>
>  >>  > ? The English plural isn't simple at all. That's what I'd call a whole
>  >>  > new dimension of difficulty.
>  >>  >
>  >>  > If it were just an s all the time, it would simply be something to get
>  >>  > used to (and try as you might, you'll never be able to create a
>  >>  > language that people will simply have to get used to using).
>  >>  >
>  >>  >
>  >>
>  >> But even if a languages may have plurals they are not always used in the
>  >>  same way as in English. I remember vaguely how the teacher in school
>  >>  talked much about "people" and "cattle"; and then "sheep" that were not
>  >>  "sheeps", even if it could be "ships"!
>  >>
>  >>  Aspects in Slavic languages is hard for us foreigners to learn, but I
>  >>  must say that ordinary Poles, who said that they did not know anything
>  >>  about Polish grammar were real great at explaining to me how I should
>  >>  use the different aspects of verbs.
>  >>
>  >>  In the beginning, I think, one should learn them as lexical unities, you
>  >>  can e.g. "kill" in many ways, once, as a serial killer etc. and all the
>  >>  different "killings" have their own aspect. It's like navigating in a
>  >>  wood, you may have to klimb a tree to se how the terrain looks, in
>  >>  language learning you look into the grammar book, then you klimb down
>  >>  and beat your way through the shrubs, inn languages this is the
>  >>  practical usage.
>  >>
>  >>  A striking example where your own language can set traps for you is
>  >>  Swedish and Ido for me. The -ag- verbs, like "martelagi" are terribly
>  >>  irregular for me, as I can put a verb ending to some nouns (but not to
>  >>  others) and it is like learning an ethnic language. I think the best
>  >>  thing is to take it lexically even there. To my Swedish mind Esperanto
>  >>  if far more logical than Ido! This doesn't mean that a Swede cannot
>  >>  learn Ido, the person in question will just have to "think ido" and
>  >>  check in a dictionary.
>  >>
>  >>  Kjell R
>  >>
>  >>
>  > I could see that, and especially when I look at Esperanto through my
>  > English point of view. However, when looking at it through my
>  > non-Indo-European languages I see a lot of other languages in Ido,
>  > like the Turkish -lemek / lamak:
>  >
>  > çekiç = hammer
>  > martelo = hammer
>  > çekiçlemek = to hammer
>  > martelagar = to hammer
>  > çekiçleme = hammering
>  > martelago = hammering
>  >
>  > çekiçmek would look weird (just like martelar, technically 'to be a
>  > hammer'), because it's just hammer+verb stem. Other verbs like
>  > fırçalamak (to brush, fırça alone just means a brush) are pretty easy
>  > to find. All the commonalities there are why I never agree when
>  > someone makes the claim that Ido is too logical - it's just that
>  > Indo-European languages seem to be unnaturally illogical, which is
>  > fine, but not a good basis to tell whether a language is truly
>  > artificial or not.
>  >
>  >
>
> Could it be that the Ido people lack the necessary phantasy? If "hammer"
>  = "to use a hammer" is "martelagar", then to use a car would be
>  "autagar". To my Swedish mind that is a quite legitimate form! Otherwise
>  "beet with" can genate an "-ag-" verb, but not "go by". On the other
>  hand Swedish cannot accept "*trainagar" = to go by train, but that seems
>  to depend from the fact that the Swedish system just used "tåg" (train)
>  from "take part in a procession", "march" or if it is an older meaning
>  in analogy to German Zug (I guess from "ziehen"), tåg might be "tow" (?)
>  in English). If so, Ido might permitt "trainagar". But the Swedish-Ido
>  dictionary doesn't permit these formations, and they are of course right.
>
>  Kjell R
>
It's not a matter of phantasy as that in English and other languages
the word for the tool is the same as the verb, which would ruin the
system (martelo would then be a hammer as well as a hammering action).
The word to drive however is a separate verb. If it didn't exist (and
especially if there was a verb 'to car' in English or other
languages), then there would probably be the verb autagar.

-- 
http://idistaro.com

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