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AUXLANG Home

AUXLANG  March 2008, Week 1

AUXLANG March 2008, Week 1

Subject:

Re: Neutrality

From:

[log in to unmask]

Reply-To:

International Auxiliary Languages <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Thu, 6 Mar 2008 10:04:42 -0500

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (242 lines)

> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of steve rice

> > True, but any language could get by with a small
> > lexicon if it was
> > "better designed".   So far the only decent list
> > I've found for
> > creating a minimalist vocabulary is the gismu list
> > for Lojban.
> > Euroclones like E-o or Ido do reduce things, but not
> > as much as they
> > could.  By using almost all European vocabulary,
> > they are also
> > creating a bias toward European semantic
> > arrangements.  Lojban isn't
> > "perfect" but the meanings of the gismu are
> > well-defined, but I have
> > found a few that could have been eliminated.
> 
> But you were arguing earlier that word forms or labels
> are of mostly mnemonic value. Here you're acting as
> though European forms entail European meanings. I tend
> to use anglo-romance labels for my non-IE concept
> list. Where would that put me? (Remember my earlier
> thought experiment about relexing the Chinese or
> Indonesian Babel text with Interlingua roots and vice
> versa: how much do the forms matter?) Eo, courtesy of
> its emphasis on relatively free compounding, does very
> non-IE things with its generally IE vocabulary as
> well.

The labels as *I* have been using for my own project are for
mnemonic value.  I am attempting to produce a lexicon with a more
logical semantic arrangement that works best for all.  One reason my
project is running so slowly it that I am being careful about all
aspects of the language, not just throwing together pieces.  I want
everything to be completely integrated into a system that works from
many different approaches.  Other projects are just grabbing words
from a mix of languages without giving semantic space much
consideration.

Yes, you could relex Chinese with Western labels (I've thought about
making a language like that just for fun) but how well would it be
understood since some of the characters/morphemes would carry
meanings across several different English words, and some English
words could have muliple shades of meaning in Chinese.

For my other experimental projects, I too use Anglo-Romance labels
because they are convenient to *me*.  At this point the labels
really are just for my own use in designing the language so I don't
have to think much about the lexicon, and work on the grammar and
syntax issues.


> > Know a few words doesn't mean you "know" the
> > language.  Let's put it
> > another way.  How many Westerners know what that
> > "good" is "hao" in
> > Mandarin?   Yes, you can find a few words here and
> > there that have
> > some type of familiarity around the world. 
> 
> How many know "good" is "da" in Welsh? The question's
> every bit as relevant. I never asserted that Chinese
> is taught to many kids in many places, though it's
> probably my fault for bringing in Spanish. What I
> meant was that even if you've only had some English in
> your childhood and couldn't manage a conversation to
> save your life, you can probably still recognize a
> number of words. If we do fairly well with passive
> recognition of foreign phrases, presumably those with
> even slight schooling will do even better.

Yes, but there are a billion people that do know "hao". The number
that know "good" could be less than that, even including L2 English
speakers.


> > Honestly, I've seen the
> > word "manga" and couldn't tell you what it means,
> > other than I know
> > it is somehow associated with those cheap-looking
> > Japanese comics.
> > So I can make the association if I was learning it. 
> > "Hasta la
> > vista" may be known as a phrase but I'll bet there
> > aren't many who
> > could break it down into its parts.  Growing up in
> > Southern
> > California, it wasn't that unusual for a Spanish
> > word or phrase to
> > find its way into casual conversation even by
> > monoglots.  I haven't
> > lived there for many years now, and actually asked
> > for a "cerveza"
> > one night at one of my watering holes only to get a
> > "huh?" from the
> > waitress.  Things are a bit different when you are
> > farther away from
> > the border.
> 
> It might be worthwhile (though very difficult) to
> produce a pop culture answer to Interglossa and Glosa.
> In both cases, the idea was to take relatively common
> greco-latin vocabulary and use it as memory hooks:
> biblio-graphy means "book-writing," so "bibli[o]"
> means "book" and "grafi/o" means "write [-ing]."

I've done similar things with a few of Sasxsek's words.  "far" or
"remote" is "tel", and "sound" is "fon" allowing the familiar word
"telxfon".  I gave up on using "graf" for "write", and made it
"image" to fit a more modern understanding of the label.

 
> So consider this: What is the international word for
> "empty"? Or how many people know "hand" or "mano"? But
> how many people know the word "karate"? Just say,
> "kara-te" means "empty-hand" (unarmed), so "kara" is
> our word for "empty" and "te" is "hand." Even though
> most people won't know the original meaning of
> "karate," this will give them a memory hook, and it
> can also provide some non-IE vocabulary.

No, not many know the true meaning of "karate", but "man" is found
not just in Romance languages, but we also have it in English words
like "manual" so you have a good 1.5-2 billion people that would be
familiar with it as is.   I'm not against using Western vocabulary,
I'm just against using it exclusively. The idea of a word like
"karate" may not work too well because then there's the chore of
learning the history of the word.  I think "karate" is best
capitalized to "Karate" and used as a proper noun to describe the
well-known fighting art as it is already known.


> > It's safe to assume that there are a few words that
> > have made it
> > around the globe but number is still fairly small. 
> > I wouldn't a yak
> > herder from Uzbekistan to know much English though
> > he may have
> > picked up a few words of Russian.
> 
> I wouldn't expect a yak-herder to care about auxlangs
> and global communication, either. About the only way
> you're going to get him to care is to put a gun to his
> head, and you can probably make him pick up a fair
> amount of Ygyde by such means, so Eo or some other
> old-school auxlang would also work.

The yak herder will care when he goes to market to sell his yak milk
and he needs to communicate with the other there.  He also may care
not about himself, but making sure his children learn a more useful
language so they don't have to grow up to be yak herders.


> But again, the point is that a lot of kids are being
> taught English, so some basic vocabulary, which is
> most of what we need, should already be available. 

*some* basic vocabulary is fine, but that's still not very much.
I'd stick mainly to the words we already know have been borrowed
into many other languages.

> >  The *goal* is to give people a *single* second
> > language which will
> > remove their need for the others.  IE languages
> > account for about
> > 40% of the world's L1 population, but 40% is still a
> > minority and
> > not all IE languages are Western languages.  
> 
> And so we begin with our goal. It does make problem
> solving a lot easier.
> 
> Problem: achieving immortality.
> Solution: Well, I'm alive right now, which is half the
> battle. Problem solved!

The problem is these language aren't very alive, and in many cases
only just conceived.  

> But what if we try to achieve conditions in which no
> one will need to learn a second natlang? That doesn't
> mean it's where we start or where we pretend to be,
> just that we work toward it, even if that means
> acknowledging that currently those involved in global
> matters typically have at least some knowledge of a
> second language.

Actually sometimes that is the best way.  A lot of people achieve
wealth by pretending to be wealthy.  It creates a mindset that helps
them to think in a manner that will produce the end result.  Look
how well Hitlary Clinton's campaign is going because she's running
around acting like she has already won the election.  The attitude
is creating and maintaining the momentum. 


> > The starting point needs to assume the worst case
> > scenario, not the
> > ideal.  In the ideal world we'd have minds capable
> > of absorbing new
> > language skills fast enough to have no need for an
> > auxlang.
> > 
> The starting point needs to be current reality. Not a
> fantasy world where everyone is just waiting for a
> chance to get involved in global matters, but one
> where the vast majority of people just plain don't
> care, so we target those who do. That also means that
> instead of targeting several billion people, we
> probably target perhaps one billion, probably fewer.
> And most of them have some knowledge of English,
> though not mastery.

The currently reality is a world where a lot of people have trouble
communicating with lots of other people.  There is nobody capable of
communicating with everyone.  Ideally an auxlang needs to make
everyone capable of communicating with everyone else.


> So we target them. If we can get them to adopt an
> auxlang, the next generation will have an easier time
> learning it than English or whatever other natlang,
> and the audience may widen. (I doubt it, but it's
> possible.)

The way is to get it pushed into the schools now so the next
generation will know it, but make it easy enough so the older
generations can still benefit. 


> 1. The Auxlang Epiphany--get people in the target
> audience to recognize the validity of auxlangs.
> 2. Work to introduce auxlangs into the international
> fora so their inherent advantages over natlangs will
> become obvious.

Unfortunately I don't see either happening.  

> >From there market forces take over.

They already have, and they chose English.

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January 2001, Week 1
December 2000, Week 5
December 2000, Week 4
December 2000, Week 3
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December 1998, Week 5
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