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On Tue, 25 Mar 2008 19:12:11 -0400, Larry Sulky <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>On Tue, Mar 25, 2008 at 6:17 PM, Antony Alexander
><[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>---SNIP---
>>
>> Are we then to have an IAL with six consonants and two
>> or three vowels so as to please everyone?
>>
>> It's a very safe bet that very few would be pleased by such
>> a phonology. Moreover, I think the great majority would
>> consider even twelve to fifteen consonants way too few.
>>
>> I have noticed that phonology comes a distant second to
>> grammar when it comes to complaints about IALs. In the
>> case of Esperanto people complain about the capped letters
>> much more than about the speech sounds they represent.
>
>Golly, my impression/experience has been quite the opposite. Grammar
>is something that one can apply analysis to and, with practice,
>master. (Idiomatic usage maybe not so much: Why does an American say
>"Dad is in the hospital" while a Canadian says "Dad is in hospital"?)
>This is an easier task for adults than children, and adults are the
>initial target audience. It's also something that can be worked on
>through written materials if necessary.
>
>Phonology, on the other hand, involves a physical ability that
>diminishes markedly by the time children are 10 or 12 years old. After
>that, learning to pronounce -- and even distinguish -- foreign sounds
>and sound combinations becomes a very difficult chore. A speaker who
>learns a language as a young adult or later in life will forever have
>an accent, and if the speaker has little opportunity to speak and
>listen (as opposed to read), that accent will likely remain very
>strong.
>
>Also think about most of the complaints of any kind that you hear
>about Esperanto. Do most of them come from Europeans, or even more
>specifically English-speakers, who already natively possess a
>phonology that is similar to that of Esperanto? Thus rendering its
>phonology a non-issue for the group that (I'm postulating) you hear
>from the most?
>
>>
>> The fact is that 25 phonemes is nothing unusual when it
>> comes to international languages - and is actually below
>> average (I am referring to existing lingua francas rather
>> than aspiring ones of the conauxlang variety).
>>
>> I read an article about creoles a few months ago. A number
>> of them were featured. The average phonology was 5 vowels
>> and about 22 consonants. I have no reason to believe this
>> approximate average isn't typical of all existing
>> pidgins/creoles. Perhaps someone could confirm this.
>>
>> Why should creoles have a bigger phonology than a great
>> many natlangs? My guess is that it's because phonology
>> isn't such a big deal compared with learning new grammar.
>>
>
>But I would also guess that the most difficult sounds in the
>contributing languages are the ones that are dropped. I don't believe
>Tok Pisin features [T] or [D], for example.
>
>> The average person has extensive phonological capacity
>> within themselves, which can usually be brought out,
>> especially when they are children. It's really just a case
>> of imitating sounds - even talking birds can do this!
>>
>
>I am very good at this myself; I'm a natural mimic. Most of my
>classmates in the various language courses I've taken through the
>years have not been so, and they have struggled mightily to attain
>something even approaching a reasonable pronunciation. Their task was
>made all the harder because frequently they honestly could not hear
>the huge difference between the instructor's pronunciation and their
>own.
>
>> On the other hand, unfamiliar grammar can be very
>> difficult, since it represent new modes of thought and
>> ways of looking at the world. For instance, Japanese and
>> other Asians tend to have great difficulty with articles.
>
>Articles are used highly idiomatically. Nevertheless, it's a valid point.
>
>> They are an alien concept. However, new speech sounds
>> are not inherently strange. Modern technology - not least
>> in music - can produce some very strange sounds, can't it?
>>
>> It's true of course that certain nationalities tend to have
>> difficulties - Chinese and Japanese differentiating /l/ and
>> /r/, Indians /v/ from /w/, Spaniards "ship" from "sheep",
>> and so on - but it's remarkable how easily such sounds can
>> be mastered with a little application.
>>
>
>Have you ever tried to teach a Japanese person to pronounce /l/? I
>have, in university. It took hours to get her close, kind of... and
>the next day she had completely lost it. We tried again the day after
>that. And she lost it again. It was hopeless. She spoke broken
>English, by the way.
>
>> Those who want to learn an IAL will normally be prepared to
>> make this effort, I think, so long as unfamiliar grammar is
>> kept to a minimum.
>
>Interesting. When I think about tackling a language I look first at
>the phonology... and a phonology that features tones, or 4-way
>voicing/aspiration distinction, or quadruple-consonant clusters, makes
>me think about giving up. And I'm _good_ at sound mimicry.
>
>I think simple phonology and simple grammar are about equally
>important. 12 to 15 consonants and 5 vowels sounds like plenty. But I
>think you and I are both speaking from our own perspectives and
>experiences. It would be interesting to see data on the phonologies of
>pidgins and creoles around the world within the context of their
>contributing languages, to determine if there is an innate skew to the
>data you mentioned above.
>
>--larry
Thanks for your interesting reply. I remember that
your IAL Konya had an unusually low number of
consonants - and here you explain why.
I’ve found the article re Creoles I referred to (thanks
to Jens who originally put me on to it). It’s a pdf - no
longer downloadable from the web - but I’ll send it to
anyone who anyone who wants a copy (my email:
aita [at] langx.org). Here’s a short excerpt:
Ndyuka 19 Kituba 20 Tok Pisin 21
Berbice, Juba Arabic, Tayo 22 Palenquero 23
Bislama 24 Baba Malay 25 Mauritian, Nubi, Sri Lankan 26
Negerhollands, Unserdeutsch, Kristang, Zamboangueńo 27
Papiamentu 30 Săo Tomense 31 Haitian, Saramaccan 32
St Lucian 33 Sango 35 Angolar 37
"...evidence that Creoles display a narrow range in
the size of their phonemic inventories. The smallest
inventory has 19 phonemes, whereas the largest
one has 37. Recall that the range for non-Creole
languages is much wider, from 11 to 141. The vast
majority of Creole languages exhibits the typical
non-Creole inventory size of 20 to 37 phonemes,
following Maddieson’s measure. Only one simple
inventory is found; 96% (22 of 23) of Creoles
show the typical size, whereas no Creole inventories
are complex by Maddieson’s measure. Given these
figures, the frequency of typical inventory sizes in
Creole versus non-Creole languages may be calculated
statistically. Given that the numbers at issue are quite
small, the Fisher’s exact probability test (Langsrud 2004,
Lowry 2000) or the chi-square test with Yates' correction
for continuity (Preacher 2003) may be used to calculate
statistical (non-) significance. The Fisher’s exact test
shows that the frequency of Creole languages with the
typical inventory size is significantly higher than in the
UPSID languages (p < 0.007; two-tailed). This result is
duplicated using Yates’ chi-square (5.86; p < 0.02).
This means that significantly more Creole languages have
phoneme inventories of typical size than non-Creole
languages. In other words, Creole phoneme inventories are
quantitatively more middle-of-the-road than the UPSID
inventories. The inventory sizes of Creoles are also very
evenly distributed within their range. The mean number
of segments in a Creole phoneme inventory is just under
27, whereas the median is 26 segments. The small
differential in mean versus median points up the even
distribution. Maddieson reports that the mean number of
phonemes per language in the UPSID database is a little
over 31; the median falls between 28 and 29. These numbers
are an outcome of the greater range in diversity in the size
of non-Creole inventories. The model number of consonants
in an UPSID inventory is 21 (Maddieson 1984: 12), whereas
a system of 5 vowel qualities is most frequent (see also below).
Interestingly, the mean and the median in the Creole languages
correspond very closely to the sum of the most frequent
number of vowel qualities (i.e., 5) and the number of the most
frequently occurring individual consonant segment types in the
UPSID database (i.e., 21). The numerical results presented in
this section may be discussed in light of the predictions of the
competing hypotheses concerning simplicity versus middle
ground in Creole grammars. Notwithstanding potential
interaction with markedness, the Creole simplicity hypothesis
predicts a substantial number of Creoles with small inventories
of fewer than 20 phonemes. The present investigation shows
that such simple inventories are very scarce. The rarity of such
inventories is unexpected and surprising under the simplicity
hypothesis. Given the present measure, it emerges that Creoles
do not have the simplest inventories, but the most typical ones.
Nearly all Creoles fall within the range typical of non-Creole
languages clustering around an inventory size of 27. This
distribution is expected under the Creole typicality hypothesis.
The fact that no Creoles show inventory sizes that are complex
under the current measure supports the idea that Creole sound
systems may be the world’s most typical sound systems.
The predictions of the typicality hypothesis are also met by the
findings of the investigation of the number of distinctive
vowel qualities.
“Nearly all Creoles fall within the range typical of non-Creole
languages clustering around an inventory size of 27.”
There you have it.
I agree with you about the difficulty for older children or
adults learning new speech sounds, but can think of four
mitigating factors:
[1] The IAL will be largely spread through being the
second language taught in schools worldwide, and
we agree that young children will have no problem
mastering the phonology. (However, teaching the IAL
in schools will not be enough in itself - there will
have to be social and cultural reinforcement in the
wider society via politics, the media, internationalist
movements and organisations etc.)
[2] Obviously, the consonants chosen for the IAL
should be the most popular worldwide, especially in
existing international languages. The speech sounds
that emerge first in infant language development are
a correlating factor. Naturally, consonant clusters
should be avoided as much as possible in an initial IAL.
[3] The culture of the IAL should be liberal re the
“correct” pronunciation of phonemes. In other words,
the IAL phoneme segments should be quite wide.
Exact pronunciation shouldn’t matter anyway: the
important thing is that the word is understood.
There is a lot of redundancy built into language and
context normally does the rest. As Zamenhof realised
with his “homaranismo” there has be an ethic
accompanying the IAL, and this should be part of it IMHO.
[4] We have to realise that, even though every child
will come to learn the IAL at school, it won’t be for
everyone. Only a minority at the present time are
particularly internationally minded. Indeed, there are
many whose consciousness is regional (their local
town/city and locality) rather than even national. I think
you’d probably find that your Japanese student who
continually pronounced /l/ as /r/ wasn’t really that
internationally-minded anyway. The same with a
Chinese who did the reverse. Not everyone has to find
employment on the international stage. I remember the
same thing from my school days: a boy who simply
couldn’t pronounce the French word “je” - the teacher
had a real go at him in class but he could only manage
/dzh/ as in “jug”. But then again he probably wasn’t
aspiring to be the French Ambassador anyway.
I do realise that my post of yesterday was a bit OTT
(I was reflecting afterwards that parrots aren’t that hot
at phonetics) but I was hoping to get the sort of response
you provided. I don’t think this subject has been discussed
enough (at least not here, unless I’ve missed a lot). It’s
all very well to have an ideal IAL grammar, but that
depends upon a global core vocabulary, which in turn
depends upon an agreed phonology - so phonology is
the basis of everything (for an auxlang in the real world).
You are probably right that it’s 50:50 with phonology
and grammar as regards difficulty, but the JPVP
hypothesis tells us to put phonology first. In other
words, if there is going to be difficulty learning the IAL
let it be focused on mastering the phonology to begin
with, since the JPVP says that the grammar can wait.
Sometimes it’s best to learn one thing before another
rather than both at the same time.
Antony Alexander http://langx.org
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November 2002, Week 3 November 2002, Week 2 November 2002, Week 1 October 2002, Week 5 October 2002, Week 4 October 2002, Week 3 October 2002, Week 2 October 2002, Week 1 September 2002, Week 5 September 2002, Week 4 September 2002, Week 3 September 2002, Week 2 September 2002, Week 1 August 2002, Week 5 August 2002, Week 4 August 2002, Week 3 August 2002, Week 2 August 2002, Week 1 July 2002, Week 5 July 2002, Week 4 July 2002, Week 3 July 2002, Week 2 July 2002, Week 1 June 2002, Week 5 June 2002, Week 4 June 2002, Week 3 June 2002, Week 2 June 2002, Week 1 May 2002, Week 5 May 2002, Week 4 May 2002, Week 3 May 2002, Week 2 May 2002, Week 1 April 2002, Week 5 April 2002, Week 4 April 2002, Week 3 April 2002, Week 2 April 2002, Week 1 March 2002, Week 5 March 2002, Week 4 March 2002, Week 3 March 2002, Week 1 February 2002, Week 4 February 2002, Week 3 February 2002, Week 2 February 2002, Week 1 January 2002, Week 5 January 2002, Week 4 January 2002, Week 3 January 2002, Week 2 January 2002, Week 1 December 2001, Week 5 December 2001, Week 4 December 2001, Week 3 December 2001, Week 2 December 2001, Week 1 November 2001, Week 5 November 2001, Week 4 November 2001, Week 3 November 2001, Week 2 November 2001, Week 1 October 2001, Week 5 October 2001, Week 4 October 2001, Week 3 October 2001, Week 2 October 2001, Week 1 September 2001, Week 5 September 2001, Week 4 September 2001, Week 3 September 2001, Week 2 September 2001, Week 1 August 2001, Week 5 August 2001, Week 4 August 2001, Week 3 August 2001, Week 2 August 2001, Week 1 July 2001, Week 5 July 2001, Week 4 July 2001, Week 3 July 2001, Week 2 July 2001, Week 1 June 2001, Week 5 June 2001, Week 4 June 2001, Week 3 June 2001, Week 2 June 2001, Week 1 May 2001, Week 5 May 2001, Week 4 May 2001, Week 3 May 2001, Week 2 May 2001, Week 1 April 2001, Week 5 April 2001, Week 4 April 2001, Week 3 April 2001, Week 2 April 2001, Week 1 March 2001, Week 5 March 2001, Week 4 March 2001, Week 3 March 2001, Week 2 March 2001, Week 1 February 2001, Week 4 February 2001, Week 3 February 2001, Week 2 February 2001, Week 1 January 2001, Week 5 January 2001, Week 4 January 2001, Week 3 January 2001, Week 2 January 2001, Week 1 December 2000, Week 5 December 2000, Week 4 December 2000, Week 3 December 2000, Week 2 December 2000, Week 1 November 2000, Week 5 November 2000, Week 4 November 2000, Week 3 November 2000, Week 2 November 2000, Week 1 October 2000, Week 5 October 2000, Week 4 October 2000, Week 3 October 2000, Week 2 October 2000, Week 1 September 2000, Week 5 September 2000, Week 4 September 2000, Week 3 September 2000, Week 2 September 2000, Week 1 August 2000, Week 5 August 2000, Week 4 August 2000, Week 3 August 2000, Week 2 August 2000, Week 1 July 2000, Week 5 July 2000, Week 4 July 2000, Week 3 July 2000, Week 2 July 2000, Week 1 June 2000, Week 5 June 2000, Week 4 June 2000, Week 3 June 2000, Week 2 June 2000, Week 1 May 2000, Week 5 May 2000, Week 4 May 2000, Week 3 May 2000, Week 2 May 2000, Week 1 April 2000, Week 5 April 2000, Week 4 April 2000, Week 3 April 2000, Week 2 April 2000, Week 1 March 2000, Week 5 March 2000, Week 4 March 2000, Week 3 March 2000, Week 2 March 2000, Week 1 February 2000, Week 5 February 2000, Week 4 February 2000, Week 3 February 2000, Week 2 February 2000, Week 1 January 2000, Week 5 January 2000, Week 4 January 2000, Week 3 January 2000, Week 2 January 2000, Week 1 December 1999, Week 5 December 1999, Week 4 December 1999, Week 3 December 1999, Week 2 December 1999, Week 1 November 1999, Week 5 November 1999, Week 4 November 1999, Week 3 November 1999, Week 2 November 1999, Week 1 October 1999, Week 5 October 1999, Week 4 October 1999, Week 3 October 1999, Week 2 October 1999, Week 1 September 1999, Week 5 September 1999, Week 4 September 1999, Week 3 September 1999, Week 2 September 1999, Week 1 August 1999, Week 5 August 1999, Week 4 August 1999, Week 3 August 1999, Week 2 August 1999, Week 1 July 1999, Week 5 July 1999, Week 4 July 1999, Week 3 July 1999, Week 2 July 1999, Week 1 June 1999, Week 5 June 1999, Week 4 June 1999, Week 3 June 1999, Week 2 June 1999, Week 1 May 1999, Week 5 May 1999, Week 4 May 1999, Week 3 May 1999, Week 2 May 1999, Week 1 April 1999, Week 5 April 1999, Week 4 April 1999, Week 3 April 1999, Week 2 April 1999, Week 1 March 1999, Week 5 March 1999, Week 4 March 1999, Week 3 March 1999, Week 2 March 1999, Week 1 February 1999, Week 5 February 1999, Week 4 February 1999, Week 3 February 1999, Week 2 February 1999, Week 1 January 1999, Week 5 January 1999, Week 4 January 1999, Week 3 January 1999, Week 2 January 1999, Week 1 December 1998, Week 5 December 1998, Week 4 December 1998, Week 3 December 1998, Week 2 December 1998, Week 1 November 1998, Week 5 November 1998, Week 4 November 1998, Week 3 November 1998, Week 2 November 1998, Week 1 October 1998, Week 5 October 1998, Week 4 October 1998, Week 3 October 1998, Week 2 October 1998, Week 1 September 1998, Week 5 September 1998, Week 4 September 1998, Week 3 September 1998, Week 2 September 1998, Week 1 August 1998, Week 4 August 1998, Week 3 August 1998, Week 2 August 1998, Week 1 July 1998, Week 5 July 1998, Week 4 July 1998, Week 3 July 1998, Week 2 July 1998, Week 1 June 1998, Week 5 June 1998, Week 4 June 1998, Week 3 June 1998, Week 2 June 1998, Week 1 May 1998, Week 5 May 1998, Week 4 May 1998, Week 3 May 1998, Week 2 May 1998, Week 1 April 1998, Week 5 April 1998, Week 4 April 1998, Week 3 April 1998, Week 2 April 1998, Week 1 March 1998, Week 5 March 1998, Week 4 March 1998, Week 3 March 1998, Week 2 March 1998, Week 1 February 1998, Week 5 February 1998, Week 4 February 1998, Week 3 February 1998, Week 2 February 1998, Week 1 January 1998, Week 5 January 1998, Week 4 January 1998, Week 3 January 1998, Week 2 January 1998, Week 1 December 1997, Week 5 December 1997, Week 4 December 1997, Week 3 December 1997, Week 2 December 1997, Week 1 November 1997, Week 5 November 1997, Week 4 November 1997, Week 3 November 1997, Week 2 November 1997, Week 1 October 1997, Week 5 October 1997, Week 4 October 1997, Week 3 October 1997, Week 2 October 1997, Week 1 September 1997, Week 5 September 1997, Week 4 September 1997, Week 3 September 1997, Week 2 September 1997, Week 1 August 1997, Week 5 August 1997, Week 4 August 1997, Week 3 August 1997, Week 2 August 1997, Week 1 July 1997, Week 5 July 1997, Week 4 July 1997, Week 3 July 1997, Week 2 July 1997, Week 1 June 1997, Week 5 June 1997, Week 4 June 1997, Week 3 June 1997, Week 2 June 1997, Week 1 May 1997, Week 5 May 1997, Week 4 May 1997, Week 3 May 1997, Week 2 May 1997, Week 1 April 1997, Week 5 April 1997, Week 4 April 1997, Week 3 April 1997, Week 2 April 1997, Week 1 March 1997, Week 5 March 1997, Week 4 March 1997, Week 3 March 1997, Week 2 March 1997, Week 1 February 1997, Week 5 February 1997, Week 4 February 1997, Week 3 February 1997, Week 2 February 1997, Week 1
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