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AUXLANG  March 2008, Week 4

AUXLANG March 2008, Week 4

Subject:

Re: What the average newspaper reader in the UK....

From:

Antony Alexander <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

International Auxiliary Languages <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Sat, 22 Mar 2008 13:17:07 -0400

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (248 lines)

On Wed, 19 Mar 2008 16:55:43 -0400, Paul Bartlett <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

>Please note that I said "constructed international auxiliary
>languages."  I was not referring to the scores of pidgins and creoles
>in the world.  Certainly they exist.  But so far any conIALs which
>have had any semblance of a usership have not been in that mode.  I
>was referring to the conIAL real world.  Only.

I know which “constructed international auxiliary
languages” you were referring to. I am objecting 
to your statement that these were the only 
“constructed international auxiliary languages” 
having any semblance of usership. The pidgins 
were most definitely “constructed international 
auxiliary languages” - even if between only two 
or three nationalities - and had a huge usership. 
Were they constructed? Yes, and mostly by the 
participants themselves, in the same way that any 
two parties without a common language learn to 
communicate. And in the case of the “trading pidgins” 
there is evidence that pidgin words which had proved 
successful in one locality were taught elsewhere, 
e.g. words of Portuguese origin such as "savvy, save" 
etc. from Portuguese "saber" ("know") and "pikin, 
pikinini, pickaninny, piccanin" etc. ("child") from 
"pequenino", the diminutive of Portuguese 
"pequeno" ("little").


>> Thus the process jargon -> pidgin -> vernacular is
>> a fact - at least where the process has carried through
>> to completion.
>
>That may be, but I am not convinced that it is especially relevant
>to the construction and adoption of auxiliary languages which are
>specifically *constructed*, as for the most part jargons, pidgins,
>and creoles are not (at least to the best of my knowledge).  I see
>the situations as significantly different.

You seem to be assuming that a language can 
only be created by a linguist. I agree that linguists
can play a useful part in the process, but to a large 
degree a language can only be created by its speakers, 
since they alone know what works in practice. This of 
course is the basis of the a posteriori methodology to 
which most auxlangers subscribe.


>>                A conguent process seems to take place
>> in child language development, which normally proceeds
>> along the path: speech sounds -> morphemes -> lexemes,
>> together with increasing grammar and the ability to use
>> language creatively. This also happens in the real world.
>
>The point being???  That is not necessarily the way things are with a
>conIAL.  I did not go through that process the first time I read a text
>in IALA Interlingua.

The point being that the authors of putative auxlangs 
might have benefited if they had paid more attention 
to the cognitive processes through which 
non-linguists acquire language. 


>> Conversely, I don’t believe that the Internet (or TV and
>> other media, for that matter) are the real world at all:
>> relative numbers of nominal speakers or webpages
>> etc don’t really count.
>
>Why not?  Why are not such media just as much a part of the real world
>as any other form of communcation?  Are we not communicating in real
>terms in this forum?

Yes we are. Sorry, my mistake. I was thinking 
more of the opportunities for manipulation, 
distortion, obfuscation etc. that exist within the 
electronic media but didn’t express my thought 
either well or accurately. 


>>> And yet, Esperanto, far and away the most successful conIAL to date,
>>> was the work of a single individual, despite your hypothesis. [...]
>
>> Why is Esperanto far and away the most successful
>> conIAL to date? In terms of numbers of speakers,
>> of pan-social penetration, and of organic growth and
>> development, the pidgins have been more successful
>> as conIALs than Esperanto
>
>I don't regard pidgins to be conIALs in the same manner as Esperanto
>or whatever, so I consider the point rather irrelevant.

If one takes the phrase "constructed international 
auxiliary languages" literally the pidgins were just 
that. Obviously they weren’t constructed by an 
external linguist in the same way as Esperanto etc., 
but I don’t see why that should be the only acceptable 
model. Why shouldn't an IAL "constructed" by its 
speakers, or by a combination of external teachers and 
indigenous speakers, be just as good - if not preferable?
And why shouldn't this alternative process be equally 
endorsed by scientific opinion?


>>                           - and all the more so if a
>> pidgin origin for English and other languages is accepted.
>
>Again, irrelevant.  (And there are disputes about whether Middle
>English was really a pidgin, as some people seem to think.)

Not irrelevant if we are considering the possibility 
of a single global language developing from an IAL.


>> Naturally, pidgins have so far been localised phenomena,
>> but there is no intrinsic reason why a “global pidgin”
>> should not have as great a potential constituency
>> as Esperanto.
>
>Theoretically, no, there isn't.  But again my point is that those few
>conIALs that have had any real semblance of user base have not been
>pidginish in structure, so I do not think it is a given that a
>pidgin-like structure for a conIAL will necessarily succeed where
>others have not.

Again, you’d have to demonstrate why pidgins 
weren’t conIALs. If you can't produce any 
evidence - and so far nobody has, to my 
knowledge - the hypothesis stands. So, assuming 
they were conIALs, they were actually 
collectively more successful in terms of both 
numbers of speakers and pan-societal 
penetration than Esperanto and the modern IALs 
(a user base so distinctly patchy in terms of social 
class and nationality might suggest the word 
"argot" rather than "language"). I am proposing that 
a new way forward for the IAL movement should 
incorporate the best of the JPVP as well as the 
genius of Esperanto and the best of the modern 
auxlangs and conlangs (and also all the latest 
relevant linguistic and other scientific research 
of course).

......

>>             And here's another question. Why is it
>> that more or less every great organisation is now
>> run by a committee rather than a single person?
>
>I think that there is something to the notion that a conIAL is as much
>a work of art as of anything else, and works of art tend to be the work
>of single persons.  I don't see the situation as comparable between
>creation of a conIAL and General Motors or Toyota (and some inductrial
>corporations sometimes in practice vest considerable authority in a
>single individual, despite the alleged committe structure of something
>like a board of directors).

I accept that a conlang can be a work of art - 
which is why some of them are described as 
artlangs, of course. But in reality these are 
not so much languages designed for the real 
world as static combinations of linguistic ideas 
for the appreciation of other linguists. But in 
case one of these languages should become 
successful in the real world it becomes a 
dynamic phenomenon, even as ownership 
passes from the author to the mass of users - 
so there has to be the possibility of a higher 
order of artistry embracing the collective, 
or not at all. But if change is prevented the 
masses may simply stay away - as has 
happened to Esperanto IMHO: a Level 2 language 
with a fixed constitution, and simply too difficult 
for the mass of non-linguists worldwide, especially 
in certain countries. Yes, it’s an excellent language - 
most of which might be preserved - but a simpler 
Level 1 entry-level version is required.


>>                                          Similarly,
>> every corporation has a nominal Chief Operating (or
>> Executive) Officer but power really lies in the board,
>> and the voting shareholders behind them.
>
>Not necessarily so in actual practice.

For larger companies comparable in size and 
complexity to a potential global IAL I know so. 
The responsibility is simply too great for one person. 
It might appear that the COO operates independently 
but it will be in consultation with the board, and 
especially the experienced non-executive directors. 
There is too much money at stake to risk on the 
decisions of one person. 

But it now occurs to me that the IAL would 
actually be closer in structure to a partnership 
than a public limited liability company. 
A prominent example in the UK is the John Lewis 
Partnership, a retail chain with many department 
stores. As a private company there are no external
shareholders and the thousands of employees 
share in the profits - a successful business model 
that is increasingly emulated. 

Thus there is a financial incentive to work hard 
and please the customer, and likewise to send 
suggestions for improving the business to the 
board of directors - as is encouraged. I think 
this is a valid analogy inasmuch as the users 
of the IAL should continually provide feed-back 
towards its improvement.


>>                                          Complex
>> processes and massive amounts of information are
>> simply too much for even a genius to handle. Even
>> if he has most of the brain-power required, the
>> physical or emotional/psychological burden needs
>> to be shared - and there is always the need for
>> consultation. A realistic IAL should be no different.
>
>I don't see the situations as comparable.  The bottom line is that I am
>simply not convinced that when it somes to constructing an auxiliary
>language, a committee product is somehow necessarily superior to the
>work of a single individual.  Collaborative efforts may be valuable,
>make no mistake, but I do not see them as a guarantee of superiority.

One could argue that, in these days of the Internet, 
most efforts are collaborative. Long gone are the 
days when a researcher in many fields ploughed a 
lonely furrow. Ten years ago or more, before I went 
online, I used to travel up to London to visit larger 
bookshops and libraries - and there was nowhere 
near the amount of material freely available there 
is today on the Internet. So in a real sense more or 
less every research effort published on the Internet 
is collaborative, whether or not the author acknowledges 
the fact. It’s the same in print publishing: very often a 
lot of the work is done by researchers and editors, 
though publishers know that the public like to see a 
famous name on the cover. Overt collaboration might 
be partly seen as formalisation of what normally 
happens anyway.


Antony Alexander     http://langx.org

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January 2001, Week 1
December 2000, Week 5
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