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CONLANG  June 2008, Week 3

CONLANG June 2008, Week 3

Subject:

Re: not un-/anti-passive

From:

Eldin Raigmore <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Fri, 20 Jun 2008 13:24:58 -0400

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (225 lines)

On Thu, 19 Jun 2008 14:13:21 -0400, Jeffrey Jones 
<[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>[snip]
>> Jeffrey; what's an online reference to the "unpassive"? If there isn't one
>> online, can you tell us a bit about who uses it, and for what? and a hint
>> about how to find the reference?
>>[snip]
>
>I found both terms using google. The unpassive is supposed to be something
>like, "The mail went uncollected for three years." so English is a language that
>uses it. I didn't copy the references.

Thanks, Jeffrey.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

On Thu, 19 Jun 2008 14:24:19 -0400, Ph. D. <[log in to unmask]> 
wrote:
>Eldin Raigmore wrote:
>> Josh; I'd never heard of the "circumstantial
>> voice" before! Does it resemble any applicative
>> "voices"?  How is it different?  Is there an online
>> reference to how Malagasay uses it?
>
>It's hard to find much info about Malagasy, but it
>seems to have three voices: active, passive, and
>circumstantial (which I personally refer to as the
>oblique). Something like this:
>
>Active: Sarah washed the clothes with the soap.
>
>Passive: The clothes were washed by Sarah with
>the soap.
>
>Circum: The soap washed-with by Sarah the clothes.
>
>This raises an oblique argument to a subject which
>is needed because in Malagasy the headword of a
>relative clause must be the subject in that clause.
>
>"I bought the soap, washed-with-which by Sarah
>the clothes."

Thanks, Ph. D.

>I believe Tagalog works like this, too, but it has a
>couple more "voices" like locative and benefactive,
>perhaps. This seems to be a better approach to
>analyzing "trigger" languages than "triggers."
I agree.  It looks like the difference is Tagalog more finely distinguishes what 
the semantic role of the “new” subject is, and Malagasay’s “circumstantial 
voice” only makes explicit that it was an oblique argument, or that it was 
neither the agent nor the patient (or neither the actor nor the undergoer).

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -


On Thu, 19 Jun 2008 14:44:35 -0400, Mark J. Reed <[log in to unmask]> 
wrote:
>On Thu, Jun 19, 2008 at 2:24 PM, Ph. D. <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>> This raises an oblique argument to a subject which
>> is needed because in Malagasy the headword of a
>> relative clause must be the subject in that clause.
>Continuing in this vein you could logically have as many voices as
>there are noun cases... interesting, if not necessarily efficient. :)
>--
>Mark J. Reed <[log in to unmask]> 

Applicative languages use different strategies.  Some have a different “voice”-
marking on the verb for every “case” the “promoted” oblique would have had in 
the basic sentence; some group them into a few groups; some have only one, 
letting you know it was an oblique, but leaving you to figure out by other 
means which oblique it was.  (The difference between applicatives and 
these “trigger voices” or “circumstantial voices” is just the destination to 
which the oblique gets promoted; in applicativization it gets promoted to the 
2nd MAP or 2nd GR (primary object or direct object), while in “circumstantial 
voice” or “trigger voice” it gets promoted to the 1st (and only, I think), 
namely, the subject.)

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -


On Thu, 19 Jun 2008 14:49:30 -0400, ROGER MILLS <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>[snip]
>Basque, IIRC, has a construction in intimate speech where you insert a 2nd
>or 3d pers. dative marker into the auxiliary (in addition to subject and
>object), which indicates that somehow the statement is of interest to, or
>concerns, that person, or even simply that speaker somehow wants to involve
>the other in the statement. The translations offered made it rather
>difficult to see exactly what was going on :-(  And I forget what the
>grammar book called it. "Dative of interest? Dative of reference?" or some
>such.
That’s usually called “the ethical dative”, from the Greek word for “character”.  
It’s not really related to the circumstantial voice.
The examples of “ethical datives” I found most easily were German, and were 
first-person-singular.


- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

On Thu, 19 Jun 2008 22:44:07 +0300, JR <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>[snip]
>In the circumstantial voice (to answer Eldin here as well) an oblique
>argument is promoted to subject. That's the core of it. 
So it’s like the voices in trigger languages, but with only one voice that 
promotes an oblique to subject.
In applicative languages, one of the reasons to promote an oblique argument 
to direct (or primary) object, is so that passivization can be applied to the 
result, and thus the oblique argument can wind up as subject; in some of 
these languages, passivization can only “move” the direct or primary object to 
the subject, but one can passivize a sentence which is “already” applicative.

>What I really wanted to see when I asked for "normal" versions of those 
sentences was 
>how experiencers were encoded in Naisek outside of this construction. You 
left them 
>out altogether, but unless they're being elided here, this shows just as well 
that they are 
>oblique, i.e., not core arguments required by the verb.

I don’t want to quibble nor derail this discussion, but I think I may be a bit 
confused about what you mean.  I am under the impression that “argument” 
means “required by the verb”, and that “core” means “occupies a grammatical 
relation (or morphosyntactically-licensed argument position).  All core 
participants are arguments, and all adjuncts (non-arguments) are oblique (non-
core), but there are oblique arguments.

In a language with only 2 GRs (subject and (only) object), and with no clause 
allowed more than one of any GR, a ditransitive clause would have to have one 
of its arguments be oblique.  If that’s the recipient, then recipients are oblique 
arguments; they aren’t objects, because “object” means “any core argument 
other than the subject”.

But the main point – that in Naisek experiencers (and, presumably, recipients) 
appear to be coded as oblique arguments rather than as core arguments – I do 
understand.

>The fact that these experiencers, when promoted to subject, appear with
>dative case, I would not attribute to the operation in question at all.
>According to your web page, dative case is used for experiencer-subjects (at
>least sometimes?) even in active voice, so I'd think this is just another
>application of the same principle of case assignment.

To me, you look right.  (Is that “to me” an ethical dative?)

>Of course your construction here is different from Malagasy not only in the
>case of the new subject, but in the types of oblique arguments that can be
>promoted in the first place. In Malagasy, it can be used for instruments,
>times, locations, beneficiaries, manners - perhaps any oblique, but I don't
>really know. In Naisek it's limited to experiencers. But the operation
>itself seems the same. You would just have to specify its range - you could
>even call it a Experiencer-Circumstantial voice if you want.

If your analysis is correct, he could also borrow whatever term grammarians of 
Tagalog use to describe the voice that has this meaning.

>Finally - instead of saying that the subject in the original structure must
>be a patient, would it be better to say simply that the *event* described
>must be some perceivable/experienceable state? Perhaps it amounts to the
>same thing most of the time, but from what I've seen, I wonder if this isn't
>the true determining factor. I'm especially troubled by (1), where there is
>no subject at all. Even if there could be one in another sentence with the
>same verb, there isn't one here (I assume the behavior is like that of the
>English 'rain', which can take a patient, but usually doesn't). Even aside
>from that though, it makes more sense to me that the possibility/behavior of
>an experiencer of an event would be dependent on some characteristic of the
>event as a whole, rather than the semantic role of any one argument.
>
>What do you think?

I am not yet able to follow this discussion well enough to answer; it requires 
sharp and fine distinctions and reasoning that I may be able to carry through 
later, but not at the moment.  But I will say that ANAICT your points are 
worth thinking about.

>Eldin, in applicatives, an non-direct object, or oblique argument is
>promoted to direct object, as I understand. I don't see that ocurring here
>though. Not really sure about good web resources for the circumstantial -
>there's a little here, a little there. There's a page on wikipedia, but I
>think there's a mistake in it.

I haven’t yet consulted Wikipedia’s page.

In 3-GR (or 3-MAP) languages, if an oblique argument is promoted to the 3rd 
GR (“indirect object” in many languages), this is often called “dative 
applicative”.  If the resulting clause then undergoes “dative movement”, that 
originally-oblique argument might wind up in the 2nd  GR (primary object or 
direct object).

In 2-GR (or 2-MAP) languages, if an oblique argument is promoted to the 2nd 
GR (primary object or direct object), this is called “applicative”.  If the 
resulting clause then undergoes passivization, that originally-oblique argument 
might wind up in the 1st GR (subject).

Tagalog and (some? Many? Most? All?) other “trigger” languages appear to 
have only one GR or MAP; the subject.  They don’t have objects; all 
arguments other than the subject are oblique arguments.  A voice that 
promotes an oblique argument has to promote it directly to subject.

>(ObAFMC) Khafos has a circumstantial voice which is pretty close to
>Malagasy's, though it's used for indirect objects as well as any other
>oblique arguments. AFAIK, IOs are in Malagasy are promoted with the normal
>passive voice, just like DOs.
>
>Josh

Well, obviously, I don’t know.  I’m not sure whether Malagasay actually has 
indirect objects.  Or objects at all.  Maybe it’s a 2-GR language, and some 
clauses we’d think of as ditransitive, are actually dechticaetiative; the (only, 
hence primary) object is the recipient, and the theme is an oblique argument.  
Or maybe it’s a 1-GR language, and both the theme and the recipient are 
oblique arguments, and to promote either to subject requires the same marking 
on the verb, the one you’ve called “passive voice”.  Or maybe it’s a 3-GR 
language.

Have you considered all of those?  What do your sources tell you that would 
support or contradict each possibility? Or is the most-preferable analysis one I 
omitted?

ObYourConlang: Is Khafos in the same genetic grouping as Malagasay and 
Tagalog?

--------
eldin

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March 2008, Week 5
March 2008, Week 4
March 2008, Week 3
March 2008, Week 2
March 2008, Week 1
February 2008, Week 5
February 2008, Week 4
February 2008, Week 3
February 2008, Week 2
February 2008, Week 1
January 2008, Week 5
January 2008, Week 4
January 2008, Week 3
January 2008, Week 2
January 2008, Week 1
December 2007, Week 5
December 2007, Week 4
December 2007, Week 3
December 2007, Week 2
December 2007, Week 1
November 2007, Week 5
November 2007, Week 4
November 2007, Week 3
November 2007, Week 2
November 2007, Week 1
October 2007, Week 5
October 2007, Week 4
October 2007, Week 3
October 2007, Week 2
October 2007, Week 1
September 2007, Week 5
September 2007, Week 4
September 2007, Week 3
September 2007, Week 2
September 2007, Week 1
August 2007, Week 5
August 2007, Week 4
August 2007, Week 3
August 2007, Week 2
August 2007, Week 1
July 2007, Week 5
July 2007, Week 4
July 2007, Week 3
July 2007, Week 2
July 2007, Week 1
June 2007, Week 5
June 2007, Week 4
June 2007, Week 3
June 2007, Week 2
June 2007, Week 1
May 2007, Week 5
May 2007, Week 4
May 2007, Week 3
May 2007, Week 2
May 2007, Week 1
April 2007, Week 5
April 2007, Week 4
April 2007, Week 3
April 2007, Week 2
April 2007, Week 1
March 2007, Week 5
March 2007, Week 4
March 2007, Week 3
March 2007, Week 2
March 2007, Week 1
February 2007, Week 4
February 2007, Week 3
February 2007, Week 2
February 2007, Week 1
January 2007, Week 5
January 2007, Week 4
January 2007, Week 3
January 2007, Week 2
January 2007, Week 1
December 2006, Week 5
December 2006, Week 4
December 2006, Week 3
December 2006, Week 2
December 2006, Week 1
November 2006, Week 5
November 2006, Week 4
November 2006, Week 3
November 2006, Week 2
November 2006, Week 1
October 2006, Week 5
October 2006, Week 4
October 2006, Week 3
October 2006, Week 2
October 2006, Week 1
September 2006, Week 5
September 2006, Week 4
September 2006, Week 3
September 2006, Week 2
September 2006, Week 1
August 2006, Week 5
August 2006, Week 4
August 2006, Week 3
August 2006, Week 2
August 2006, Week 1
July 2006, Week 5
July 2006, Week 4
July 2006, Week 3
July 2006, Week 2
July 2006, Week 1
June 2006, Week 5
June 2006, Week 4
June 2006, Week 3
June 2006, Week 2
June 2006, Week 1
May 2006, Week 5
May 2006, Week 4
May 2006, Week 3
May 2006, Week 2
May 2006, Week 1
April 2006, Week 5
April 2006, Week 4
April 2006, Week 3
April 2006, Week 2
April 2006, Week 1
March 2006, Week 5
March 2006, Week 4
March 2006, Week 3
March 2006, Week 2
March 2006, Week 1
February 2006, Week 4
February 2006, Week 3
February 2006, Week 2
February 2006, Week 1
January 2006, Week 5
January 2006, Week 4
January 2006, Week 3
January 2006, Week 2
January 2006, Week 1
December 2005, Week 5
December 2005, Week 4
December 2005, Week 3
December 2005, Week 2
December 2005, Week 1
November 2005, Week 5
November 2005, Week 4
November 2005, Week 3
November 2005, Week 2
November 2005, Week 1
October 2005, Week 5
October 2005, Week 4
October 2005, Week 3
October 2005, Week 2
October 2005, Week 1
September 2005, Week 5
September 2005, Week 4
September 2005, Week 3
September 2005, Week 2
September 2005, Week 1
August 2005, Week 5
August 2005, Week 4
August 2005, Week 3
August 2005, Week 2
August 2005, Week 1
July 2005, Week 5
July 2005, Week 4
July 2005, Week 3
July 2005, Week 2
July 2005, Week 1
June 2005, Week 5
June 2005, Week 4
June 2005, Week 3
June 2005, Week 2
June 2005, Week 1
May 2005, Week 5
May 2005, Week 4
May 2005, Week 3
May 2005, Week 2
May 2005, Week 1
April 2005, Week 5
April 2005, Week 4
April 2005, Week 3
April 2005, Week 2
April 2005, Week 1
March 2005, Week 5
March 2005, Week 4
March 2005, Week 3
March 2005, Week 2
March 2005, Week 1
February 2005, Week 4
February 2005, Week 3
February 2005, Week 2
February 2005, Week 1
January 2005, Week 5
January 2005, Week 4
January 2005, Week 3
January 2005, Week 2
January 2005, Week 1
December 2004, Week 5
December 2004, Week 4
December 2004, Week 3
December 2004, Week 2
December 2004, Week 1
November 2004, Week 5
November 2004, Week 4
November 2004, Week 3
November 2004, Week 2
November 2004, Week 1
October 2004, Week 5
October 2004, Week 4
October 2004, Week 3
October 2004, Week 2
October 2004, Week 1
September 2004, Week 5
September 2004, Week 4
September 2004, Week 3
September 2004, Week 2
September 2004, Week 1
August 2004, Week 5
August 2004, Week 4
August 2004, Week 3
August 2004, Week 2
August 2004, Week 1
July 2004, Week 5
July 2004, Week 4
July 2004, Week 3
July 2004, Week 2
July 2004, Week 1
June 2004, Week 5
June 2004, Week 4
June 2004, Week 3
June 2004, Week 2
June 2004, Week 1
May 2004, Week 5
May 2004, Week 4
May 2004, Week 3
May 2004, Week 2
May 2004, Week 1
April 2004, Week 5
April 2004, Week 4
April 2004, Week 3
April 2004, Week 2
April 2004, Week 1
March 2004, Week 5
March 2004, Week 4
March 2004, Week 3
March 2004, Week 2
March 2004, Week 1
February 2004, Week 5
February 2004, Week 4
February 2004, Week 3
February 2004, Week 2
February 2004, Week 1
January 2004, Week 5
January 2004, Week 4
January 2004, Week 3
January 2004, Week 2
January 2004, Week 1
December 2003, Week 5
December 2003, Week 4
December 2003, Week 3
December 2003, Week 2
December 2003, Week 1
November 2003, Week 5
November 2003, Week 4
November 2003, Week 3
November 2003, Week 2
November 2003, Week 1
October 2003, Week 5
October 2003, Week 4
October 2003, Week 3
October 2003, Week 2
October 2003, Week 1
September 2003, Week 5
September 2003, Week 4
September 2003, Week 3
September 2003, Week 2
September 2003, Week 1
August 2003, Week 5
August 2003, Week 4
August 2003, Week 3
August 2003, Week 2
August 2003, Week 1
July 2003, Week 5
July 2003, Week 4
July 2003, Week 3
July 2003, Week 2
July 2003, Week 1
June 2003, Week 5
June 2003, Week 4
June 2003, Week 3
June 2003, Week 2
June 2003, Week 1
May 2003, Week 5
May 2003, Week 4
May 2003, Week 3
May 2003, Week 2
May 2003, Week 1
April 2003, Week 5
April 2003, Week 4
April 2003, Week 3
April 2003, Week 2
April 2003, Week 1
March 2003, Week 5
March 2003, Week 4
March 2003, Week 3
March 2003, Week 2
March 2003, Week 1
February 2003, Week 4
February 2003, Week 3
February 2003, Week 2
February 2003, Week 1
January 2003, Week 5
January 2003, Week 4
January 2003, Week 3
January 2003, Week 2
January 2003, Week 1
December 2002, Week 5
December 2002, Week 4
December 2002, Week 3
December 2002, Week 2
December 2002, Week 1
November 2002, Week 5
November 2002, Week 4
November 2002, Week 3
November 2002, Week 2
November 2002, Week 1
October 2002, Week 5
October 2002, Week 4
October 2002, Week 3
October 2002, Week 2
October 2002, Week 1
September 2002, Week 5
September 2002, Week 4
September 2002, Week 3
September 2002, Week 2
September 2002, Week 1
August 2002, Week 5
August 2002, Week 4
August 2002, Week 3
August 2002, Week 2
August 2002, Week 1
July 2002, Week 5
July 2002, Week 4
July 2002, Week 3
July 2002, Week 2
July 2002, Week 1
June 2002, Week 5
June 2002, Week 4
June 2002, Week 3
June 2002, Week 2
June 2002, Week 1
May 2002, Week 5
May 2002, Week 4
May 2002, Week 3
May 2002, Week 2
May 2002, Week 1
April 2002, Week 5
April 2002, Week 4
April 2002, Week 3
April 2002, Week 2
April 2002, Week 1
March 2002, Week 5
March 2002, Week 4
March 2002, Week 3
March 2002, Week 2
March 2002, Week 1
February 2002, Week 4
February 2002, Week 3
February 2002, Week 2
February 2002, Week 1
January 2002, Week 5
January 2002, Week 4
January 2002, Week 3
January 2002, Week 2
January 2002, Week 1
December 2001, Week 5
December 2001, Week 4
December 2001, Week 3
December 2001, Week 2
December 2001, Week 1
November 2001, Week 5
November 2001, Week 4
November 2001, Week 3
November 2001, Week 2
November 2001, Week 1
October 2001, Week 5
October 2001, Week 4
October 2001, Week 3
October 2001, Week 2
October 2001, Week 1
September 2001, Week 5
September 2001, Week 4
September 2001, Week 3
September 2001, Week 2
September 2001, Week 1
August 2001, Week 5
August 2001, Week 4
August 2001, Week 3
August 2001, Week 2
August 2001, Week 1
July 2001, Week 5
July 2001, Week 4
July 2001, Week 3
July 2001, Week 2
July 2001, Week 1
June 2001, Week 5
June 2001, Week 4
June 2001, Week 3
June 2001, Week 2
June 2001, Week 1
May 2001, Week 5
May 2001, Week 4
May 2001, Week 3
May 2001, Week 2
May 2001, Week 1
April 2001, Week 5
April 2001, Week 4
April 2001, Week 3
April 2001, Week 2
April 2001, Week 1
March 2001, Week 5
March 2001, Week 4
March 2001, Week 3
March 2001, Week 2
March 2001, Week 1
February 2001, Week 4
February 2001, Week 3
February 2001, Week 2
February 2001, Week 1
January 2001, Week 5
January 2001, Week 4
January 2001, Week 3
January 2001, Week 2
January 2001, Week 1
December 2000, Week 5
December 2000, Week 4
December 2000, Week 3
December 2000, Week 2
December 2000, Week 1
November 2000, Week 5
November 2000, Week 4
November 2000, Week 3
November 2000, Week 2
November 2000, Week 1
October 2000, Week 5
October 2000, Week 4
October 2000, Week 3
October 2000, Week 2
October 2000, Week 1
September 2000, Week 5
September 2000, Week 4
September 2000, Week 3
September 2000, Week 2
September 2000, Week 1
August 2000, Week 5
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August 2000, Week 3
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June 2000, Week 5
June 2000, Week 4
June 2000, Week 3
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May 2000, Week 5
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May 2000, Week 1
April 2000, Week 5
April 2000, Week 4
April 2000, Week 3
April 2000, Week 2
April 2000, Week 1
March 2000, Week 5
March 2000, Week 4
March 2000, Week 3
March 2000, Week 2
March 2000, Week 1
February 2000, Week 5
February 2000, Week 4
February 2000, Week 3
February 2000, Week 2
February 2000, Week 1
January 2000, Week 5
January 2000, Week 4
January 2000, Week 3
January 2000, Week 2
January 2000, Week 1
December 1999, Week 5
December 1999, Week 4
December 1999, Week 3
December 1999, Week 2
December 1999, Week 1
November 1999, Week 5
November 1999, Week 4
November 1999, Week 3
November 1999, Week 2
November 1999, Week 1
October 1999, Week 5
October 1999, Week 4
October 1999, Week 3
October 1999, Week 2
October 1999, Week 1
September 1999, Week 5
September 1999, Week 4
September 1999, Week 3
September 1999, Week 2
September 1999, Week 1
August 1999, Week 5
August 1999, Week 4
August 1999, Week 3
August 1999, Week 2
August 1999, Week 1
July 1999, Week 5
July 1999, Week 4
July 1999, Week 3
July 1999, Week 2
July 1999, Week 1
June 1999, Week 5
June 1999, Week 4
June 1999, Week 3
June 1999, Week 2
June 1999, Week 1
May 1999, Week 5
May 1999, Week 4
May 1999, Week 3
May 1999, Week 2
May 1999, Week 1
April 1999, Week 5
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April 1999, Week 3
April 1999, Week 2
April 1999, Week 1
March 1999, Week 5
March 1999, Week 4
March 1999, Week 3
March 1999, Week 2
March 1999, Week 1
February 1999, Week 5
February 1999, Week 4
February 1999, Week 3
February 1999, Week 2
February 1999, Week 1
January 1999, Week 5
January 1999, Week 4
January 1999, Week 3
January 1999, Week 2
January 1999, Week 1
December 1998, Week 5
December 1998, Week 4
December 1998, Week 3
December 1998, Week 2
December 1998, Week 1
November 1998, Week 5
November 1998, Week 4
November 1998, Week 3
November 1998, Week 2
November 1998, Week 1
October 1998, Week 5
October 1998, Week 4
October 1998, Week 3
October 1998, Week 2
October 1998, Week 1
September 1998, Week 5
September 1998, Week 4
September 1998, Week 3

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