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CONLANG  June 2008, Week 3

CONLANG June 2008, Week 3

Subject:

Re: not un-/anti-passive

From:

Jeffrey Jones <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Thu, 19 Jun 2008 14:04:23 -0400

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (95 lines)

On Thu, 19 Jun 2008 14:20:12 +0300, JR <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
>On Thu, Jun 19, 2008 at 12:36 PM, Jeffrey Jones <[log in to unmask]>
>wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 19 Jun 2008 10:30:03 +0300, JR <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>> >
>> >On Thu, Jun 19, 2008 at 4:38 AM, Jeffrey Jones
>> > <[log in to unmask]>
>> >wrote:
>> >
>> >> In Naisek, there are some grammatical voice prefixes, including a
>> >> causative and two kinds of passive. Another one adds a dative subject,
>> >> usually indicating a perceiver, to verbs which otherwise have patientive
>> >> subjects. I had first mistakenly called it an antipassive prefix (I don't
>> >> know why, except that it is the opposite of a passive). This was hastily
>> >> changed to unpassive when I looked at it later. It turns out that
>> >> unpassive is also already used for something else, so I need a new
>> >> term. Does anybody know?
>> >>
>> >> Jeff
>> >
>> >
>> > Do I understand correctly that this is used to de-emphasize an
>> > already-existing patientive subject, and not to add a new argument?
>>
>> No, it adds a new argument, although the role of the dative may be
>> implicit.
>>
>> > Does the new dative trigger agreement in the verb (if there is agreement
>> > at all)?
>>
>> Yes.
>>
>> > Can it be used with any verb with a patientive subject? If not, how is
>> > its range limited?
>>
>> I think so. I forgot to say it's also used with modal auxiliaries.
>>
>> > When you say the dative subject "usually" indicates a perceiver, what are
>> > the other possibilities?
>>
>> Someone shaded or rained on, as in examples (1) and (2), and another role
>> I don't know the name for in (5).
>>
>> > Can you give some examples?
>>
>> Note: ABS = patientive, ERG = agentive
>>
>> (1) Ho-paldu-bwe.
>>    ???-rain.PRS.IND-1NPD
>>    "It's raining on us."
>> Technically, paldax is impersonal, but there can still be a patientive
>> argument.
>> (2) Hi korilo su-bwe ho-naus-in.
>>    DEF-INA.S.ABS hazel.S.ABS COP.PRS.IND-1NPD ???-shade-VN
>>    "The hazel shades us."
>> (The COP copula + VN verbal noun construction = habitual aspect.)
>> (3) T-a-m matse t-i ho-jad-en-ti xiskw-e.
>>    3-ANI.S-GEN mother.S.DAT 3-INA.S.ABS ???-seem-FUT.IND-3SD terrible-
>> SPO
>>    "It will seem terrible to her mother."
>> (4) Ho-laun-os-t-ki gaut-a daxme tep nu.
>>    ???-beautiful-CMP-VRB-1SD NUL-ANI.S.ABS woman.S.ABS than 2S.ABS
>>    "There's no woman more beautiful to me than you."
>> (5) T-i juku ho-laip-ti-twe.
>>    3-INA.S.ABS very ???-easy-VRB-3PD
>>    "It's very easy for them."
>> (6) Johanna-i ho-bof-ti lo Tomas-a disp-ax-ta.
>>    Joan-DAT ???-modal.PRS.IND-3SD CPL Tom-ERG dance-SUB-3SE
>>    "Joan thinks Tom should dance."
>
>
>So far it looks like a circumstantial voice, like that of Malagasy ...
>though differing in the specifics. Can you give the "normal" versions of a
>few of these sentences, though, without using the construction in question?
>Say, numbers 1, 2, and 6. And what's the meaning of the modal in 6?
>
>Josh

I googled for circumstantial voice and it doesn't look like it qualifies.

(1a) Paldi.
    rain.PRS.IND.3SA
    "It's raining."
(2a) Hi korilo si naus-in.
    DEF-INA.S.ABS hazel.S.ABS COP.PRS.IND-3SA shade-VN
    "The hazel provides shade."
(6a) Tomas-a bof-ta disp-ax.
    Tom-ERG modal.PRS.IND-3SE dance-INF
    "Tom should dance."

Bofax is hard for me to gloss or to even describe. I usually translate it 
as "should", although that can be misleading.

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