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AUXLANG  June 2008, Week 5

AUXLANG June 2008, Week 5

Subject:

Re: "one" vs. "a(n)" (< Which natural language deserves our support if any?)

From:

Antonielly Garcia Rodrigues <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

International Auxiliary Languages <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Mon, 30 Jun 2008 23:34:39 +0100

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (102 lines)

On Mon, Jun 30, 2008 at 10:53 PM,  <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
>  Sometimes you may want an article and quantity
> combined.
>
>        the cat(s)
>                A specific cat or group of cats.
>

the cat = o gato
the cats = os gatos

>        a/some cat(s)
>                A non-specified cat or group of cats.
>

a cat = um gato / um dado gato (lit. "one cat" / "one given cat")
some cat = um gato
some cats = uns gatos / alguns gatos

>        no cats
>                To show a complete absence of cats.
>

no cats = nenhum gato (lit. "not [even] one cat")
Realize that even here we use the word "um" in Portuguese. "nenhum"
derives from "nem um" ("not [even] one).

>        one cat
>                There is only one cat, as opposed to some other
> quantity.
>

We say "um gato" too. If we want to say "There is only one cat, as
opposed to some other quantity.", we can say "exatamente um gato"
(lit. "exactly one cat"), or even "só um gato" (lit. "only one cat").

>        the one cat
>                One specific cat of multiple possibilities.
>

We can say "o gato mencionado" (lit. "the [previously] mentioned cat),
"o dito gato" (lit. "the said cat"), o gato específico" ("the
especific cat"), "o gato do qual falei antes" (lit. "the cat whom I
have talked about before") or even "aquele gato" ("that cat"). In
Portuguese, there is no place for "um" in this case (since the word
"um", which is both the number and the indefinite article, cannot
immediately follow a definite article), although in English there is
an idiomatic "one".

>        (any) two cats (or another positive numeral)
>                There is more than one cat, but we're not
> referring to specific ones.
>

any two cats = quaisquer dois gatos (lit. "any two cats" / "whatever two cats")

>        the two cats
>                Two specific cats.
>

os dois gatos.

----

This translation exercise was interesting :) .

I forgot to make an important point in the previous messages about the
advantages of conflating "a"/"an" and "one" (the number, not the
pronoun): if you do that, the "formal" need for an indefinite article
disappears. You just specify the real number of entities ("one",
"two", "three", ...) or you adopt a word ("some") that indicates a
vague number of entities.

While I do not advocate the merge of "some" and "ones" (the "number in
plural", not the pronoun) as strongly as I advocate the merge of
"a"/"an" and "one", there is also a small advantage to it: it
decreases in one unit the number of lexical entities to be learnt.
- What did you see there?
- I saw cats?
- How many cats?
- I do not know; there were "ones" cats, but I do not know the exact number.
In this case "ones" means "a *plural* number of entities, where,
tautologically, each entity is *one* entity". So "one"/"um" + "plural"
("-s") = "ones"/"uns".
Such word "ones" in the new language would be the same as "some" in English.

So, my suggestion is: do not "formally" add an indefinite article to
your language; doing so would unnecessarily complicate your grammar.
If the person needs to mark "indefiniteness" as opposed to
"definiteness", let him use the words reserved for number values
("one", "two", "three", whatever). If the number value does not follow
a definite article, we have "indefiniteness"; otherwise we have
"definiteness" ("the [one]", "the two", "the three", ...).

If you want to go even further and also remove the definite article,
merge the meanings of "the" and "that" into just one word too. Then
you could replace "I saw a cat yesterday. The cat was black." by "I
saw one given cat yesterday. That cat was black.".

Antonielly Garcia Rodrigues

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