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AUXLANG  November 2008, Week 1

AUXLANG November 2008, Week 1

Subject:

Re: World government = world language? (< "Artificial" prejudice)

From:

steve rice <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

[log in to unmask]

Date:

Sat, 1 Nov 2008 19:39:15 -0700

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (95 lines)

--- On Sat, 11/1/08, Olivier Simon <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

> Sell vesper Steve!
> 
> >Although they weren't really design considerations,
> Eo's Kontakto list and (I 
> suppose) Ido's Mil Vorti come to mind. (I haven't
> seen the Ido list, however.) 
> Among other projects, there's Loglan's list of
> primitive predicates and 
> Interglossa's list. I have a rather odd list of my own
> that I'll probably publish 
> online at some point.
> >
> >The problem is that some languages don't handle
> minimal vocabularies well. 
> You need a system that handles derivation predictably, as
> in Eo, Ido, and (to 
> a lesser extent) Occ. LFN would work too. Interlingua is a
> bad choice here.
> >
> Nothing prevents from making lists of basic words from
> languages with a full-
> developped vocabulary. For example, there is "Basic
> English". 

It's certainly possible to make such a list for almost any language. However, languages with predictable derivation, such as Eo and Ido, can get by on fewer words than one with a less-predictable system, as in Ia aqua->aquatic. Similarly, a truly isolating system can largely ignore the problem: Interglossa has "hydro" for Eo akvo/-a.

> Derivation and 
> compounding are useful, but they cannot do everything. 

True, but they provide a foundation. One of the hallmarks of my projects is a concern with what I call "external derivation." "Internal derivation" is the usual kind involving affixes and such; "external derivation" is the method (if any) for deriving vocabulary from existing sources--being able to coin a form immediately and confidently based on the source language(s). I generally have thoroughly designed systems for external derivation, but there cases where the rules simply don't produce a useful form, and the chaos usually occurs among high-frequency concepts. So I use a basic list to ensure useful forms and avoid homonyms. The list generally follows the rules, but it may diverge as necessary.

So the basic list

1. ensures that the most necessary concepts are covered--a user will not suddenly discover that there is no word for some everyday concept;

2. gives the beginner a smaller vocabulry to concentrate on, so he doesn't have to guess at what's essential and what's not;

3. increases the repetition in elementary texts, thus reinforcing the basic vocabulary; and

4. helps distinguish between a basic and an advanced text.

The advanced vocabulary is based entirely on external derivation.
 
> But even a list of a few hundred words is not as easy to
> remember alone. The 
> best is to be confronted with texts (written or read) from
> the original 
> language; then your brain unwillingly begins to locate the
> most used words. 

But unless you're reading something based on a word list, the frequency distribution will be extremely uneven. You may have several relatively rare words along with other more common ones. In fact, the only words you can be sure of learning this way will be the very basic vocabulary--pronouns, articles, numbers, a handful of nouns, verbs, etc.

> >However, it has a number of synonyms and other
> hallmarks of "expressivity 
> and powerfulness," which was the point you were
> making. Also, Ia is at-sight 
> readable to a lot of people (who already know a Romance
> language, yes), so it 
> has a larger potential audience. So Ia has the advantage
> you ascribe to 
> Sambahsa, along with an extra advantage or so, yet it lacks
> several of 
> Sambahsa's negatives (oddball vowels, weird spelling,
> etc.).
> >
> What do you precisely consider "oddball" and
> "weird"? On the contrary to 
> Interlingua, sambahsa's orthograph is fully regular
> since, as far as I know, 
> Interlingua keeps loanwords with their original orthograph.

The "oddball vowels" are front rounded ones, which I'm reasonably sure occur in Sambahsa but not in Ia (except in certain loanwords, and possibly not even then). The "weird spelling" is no less weird for being regular. Like Dana, I consider Sambahsa a brilliant artlang; it's really very ingenious. But it has various features that ill suit an auxlang, and phonology and spelling are among them.
 
> Of course, an auxlang with a broader vocabulary selection
> than Romance will 
> be less readable at first sight for speakers of Romance
> than Interlingua or 
> Occidental. (though, thanks to its elaborated orthographic
> rules, Sambahsa 
> generally manage to preserve the recognizability of most
> loanwords from West-
> European languages). 
> A speaker of Ido once wrote that he could understand the
> general meaning of 
> a text in sambahsa, but not every single sentence. 
> 
I'm not saying that at-sight ability is necessary, but it can help overcome the initial psychological barrier that most languages present: Can I learn this? If I find that I can get the gist of a text written or (even better) spoken in it, that will give me confidence that I can learn it. For a language such as Eo, Sasxsek, or Sambahsa, you're stuck with, "See how this word resembles something you're familiar with? And look how regular the derivation is!" That's not as convincing to an ordinary person. The best compromise is probably something like LFN or Ingli.

Steve


      

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