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CONLANG  November 2008, Week 2

CONLANG November 2008, Week 2

Subject:

Re: Describing the Welsh LL to non-linguists

From:

"Mark J. Reed" <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Fri, 14 Nov 2008 06:15:05 -0500

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (84 lines)

Also, Mesoamerican "tl" is really an affricate /tK)/, which is spelled
"tlh" in Klingon. The latter is where I first encountered the sound,
and the description of how to pronounce it in The Klingon Dictionary
may be instructive in this context; I don't have my copy handy or I
would quote the relevant sentences.


On 11/14/08, R A Brown <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> Peter Collier wrote:
>> As a kid I (L1 English Midlands-English) was always told to pronounce
>> it like < CL >. I have also heard < HL > suggested as
>> an English approximation, and also '' sort of somewhere between CL and
>> HL''.
>>
>> I have also sometimes heard it pronounced by non-Welsh speakers as <
>> THL > (i.e. /Tl/) when it is medial.
>
> This is all true, but such pronunciations are just _approximations_
> adopted often - but by no means always - by L1 speakers.
> =====================================================
>
> René Uittenbogaard wrote:
> > I'd describe it as follows:
> > Start with pronouncing a really long, sustained [l]. Now stop
> > pronouncing it, but keep your tongue in the same position. Now without
> > moving your tongue, blow air out, which should flow along both sides
> > of the tongue.
>
> When I was learning Welsh - a very long time ago - I was told to push my
> tongue to one side of my mouth (it didn't matter which - in fact it's
> always to the left in my case) and then force air out along the other side.
>
> As I habitually pronounce English /l/ with tongue central, I thought
> this position was an essential difference. in fact, I have learnt that
> it is not so. Apparently the tongue position can vary quite a bit when
> pronouncing English /l/ (i.e. it may be bilateral or just unilateral) -
> but the forcing out of air (or blowing) is the important part. It's
> _not_ just a voiceless and/or aspirated /l/, as I've seen it wrongly
> described on some websites; it most definitely has _audible friction_
> produced by partial blocking of the airstream by the tongue.
>
> If you try to pronounce _pull_ and _push_ *at the same time* you get a
> pretty close to Welsh _pwll_ (pit, pool) :)
>
> ===========================================
>
> Arthaey Angosii wrote:
> [snip]
> > Also, what transliterations are there besides "ll" for voiceless
> > lateral fricatives?
>
> Earlier in Welsh it was sometimes written _lh_ before the spelling _ll_
> became standardized in the 16th century.
>
> In Nguni languages of south Africa (Zulu, Xhosa) etc, the sound is
> written _hl_; these languages also have a _voiced_ lateral fricative
> (IPA [ɮ]) written _dl_.
>
> All the above are alveolar lateral fricatives. Lateral fricatives are
> also possible in retroflex, palatal and velar positions, altho there are
> no IPA symbols for these. The Bura language of north-eastern Nigeria has
> four lateral fricatives: voiced & voiceless alveolar ones, and voiced &
> voiceless velar ones - but I haven't discovered how they are written.
>
> IIRC I have been told that Icelandic _hl_ and _hlj_ are voiceless
> lateral fricatives, the former being alveolar & the latter palatal.
>
>
> I have been told Icelandic
> --
> Ray
> ==================================
> http://www.carolandray.plus.com
> ==================================
> Frustra fit per plura quod potest
> fieri per pauciora.
> [William of Ockham]
>

--
Sent from Gmail for mobile | mobile.google.com

Mark J. Reed <[log in to unmask]>

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September 2002, Week 1
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