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CONLANG  December 2008, Week 2

CONLANG December 2008, Week 2

Subject:

Re: THEORY: Aspect terminology (long)

From:

R A Brown <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Fri, 12 Dec 2008 16:57:23 +0000

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (160 lines)

Eric Christopherson wrote:
> On Dec 11, 2008, at 10:21 PM, Alex Fink wrote:
> 
>> On Wed, 10 Dec 2008 00:38:40 -0600, Eric Christopherson 
>> <[log in to unmask]>
>> wrote:
[snip]
>>> Part of the discomfort has to do with four aspects: perfective,
>>> perfect, and two "aorists". Here is what I have so far:
>>>
>>> Perfective - marks an event as completed
>>> Perfect (or as I initially called it "effective") - marks an event as
>>> completed AND leaving behind a state of relevance

That's is, indeed, what is normally by 'perfect aspect' - but 
'perfective' normally denotes an aspect which lacks explicit reference 
to the internal temporal consistency of a situation, as opposed to the 
'imperfective' which does make reference to the internal temporal situation.

>>> Stative aorist or gnomic aorist - used for timeless truths
>>> Eventive aorist or "pure eventive" - used to describe events pure and
>>> simple, without considering their end points

This seems like a confusion of two different uses of "aorist" in the 
traditional terminology of ancient Greek grammar where "aorist" is used 
to denote both a tense and an aspect. The so-called 'gnomic aorist' is a 
peculiar use of the aorist _tense_ in ancient Greek.

By "eventive aorist" you mean, I think, the use of 'aorist' in the terms 
'aorist subjunctive, aorist optative, aorist imperative' etc, where 
'aorist' denotes _aspect_ - the perfective aspect, in fact, as it still 
does in modern Greek.

>>> Now, I'm not sure what to actually call my "perfective".

Indeed - I think Aidan Grey's suggestion of 'completive' is probably the 
most apposite.

>> Perhaps I miss something, but does a verbal form referring to "completed
>> events" not bring in tense meanings as well?  I'd call it a past 
>> perfective.
> 
> Well, a perfective (or a perfect, for that matter) could have reference 
> to any time. 

Indeed they can. Both the Slavonic languages and modern Greek have 
various perfective tenses.

> A "past perfective" to me would be something like "When I 
> saw Twilight, I had already read the book". 

Yep - what's traditionally called the 'pluperfect'.

> (I think some grammarians do 
> talk about that kind of thing as involving a tense relative to another 
> tense; see the terms "past in the past", "past in the future", etc.)

They do - but this IMO is confusing tense and aspect.

>>  I've seen single-word names deployed for the past perfective, in case 
>> you
>> want one (

So have I - see above     :)

> no surprise, it's a common category, at least in IE, and our
>> terminology grew up describing IE): "preterite", but I've also seen that
>> used for an aspect-unspecified past; 

Indeed - that, I thought, was the normal use of 'preterite'. The German 
preterite surely often has a past _imperfective_ meaning.

>>and "aorist", which I'm sure you'll
>> _love_ as a suggestion.
> 
> I do like "aorist", but as I said it has somewhat contradictory (yet 
> also somewhat congruent) meanings.

The trouble _aorist_ it that it has developed several different 
meanings; Trask, for example, lists:
1. A verb form marked for past tense but unmarked for aspect.
2. A verb form marked for both past tense and perfective aspect.
3. A verb form marked for perfective aspect.
4. A conventional label used in a highly variable manner among 
specialists in particular languages to denote some particular verb form 
or set of verb forms.

2 and 3 are the Greek usage. As an example of 4, Trask gives G. L. 
Lewis' use of the term to denote durative/habitual aspect forms in 
Turkish. Trask also adds: "NOTE: in view of this great terminological 
confusion, Comrie (1976) recommends the avoidance of the term 'aorist' 
in linguistic theory."

I agree. If the term 'aorist' is used, then obviously its use in the 
particular language needs to be clearly defined.

>>
>>> I have seen
>>> various definitions of perfective aspect as referring to a
>>> *completed* event, but I've also seen definitions of it as referring
>>> to a *complete* event, i.e. an event without reference to its end
>>> state or any internal structure. For some reason I seem to believe
>>> that the "complete" reading is the one more popular in linguistics
>>> per se, whereas the "completed" reading is more common in
>>> conlanging... is that true?

If this is true then 'twould seem to me that conlangers have a tendency 
to confuse perfect and perfective aspects - but I don't know whether 
this is true or not.

[snip]
>>
>>> As for perfect, I like the name "effective" since it's parallel to
>>> "perfective", but I don't know that it's precedented.
>>
>> I've never heard of an "effective".
> 
> It's my own coinage :)

It would certainly be helpful if a different term than 'perfect' were 
used; but however attractive 'effective' (which I've also not see it 
used as an aspectual term) may be, I'm afraid 'perfect' and 'perfective' 
have been around too long.

[snip]
>>
>> Instead of Perfective - Completive.

Agreed.

>> Instead of Perfect/Effective - Resultative.

Except that the way Eric described this aspect, it is the perfect aspect 
IMO.

>> Instead of Stative/Gnomic Aorist - Gnomic or Stative (esp. if  "it is 
>> red" would take this aspect).

Yep - gnomic would seem to fit the bill.

> I'm just not sure yet if I will differentiate things like "The sky is 
> blue" (=always, by its very nature) and "The ball is blue" (now, 
> incidentally). Gnomic would only work for the first one. I'll have to 
> think about it.

Indeed - the ancient 'gnomic aorist' would only fit the first one.

> Instead of Eventive Aorist - Aorist.

But be aware that _aorist_ has so many different meanings    ;)

-- 
Ray
==================================
http://www.carolandray.plus.com
==================================
Frustra fit per plura quod potest
fieri per pauciora.
[William of Ockham]

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December 2004, Week 2
December 2004, Week 1
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November 2004, Week 4
November 2004, Week 3
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November 2004, Week 1
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October 2004, Week 3
October 2004, Week 2
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September 2004, Week 5
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September 2004, Week 3
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September 2004, Week 1
August 2004, Week 5
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May 2004, Week 3
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July 2003, Week 3
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July 2003, Week 1
June 2003, Week 5
June 2003, Week 4
June 2003, Week 3
June 2003, Week 2
June 2003, Week 1
May 2003, Week 5
May 2003, Week 4
May 2003, Week 3
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April 2003, Week 5
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February 2003, Week 1
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January 2003, Week 3
January 2003, Week 2
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November 2002, Week 4
November 2002, Week 3
November 2002, Week 2
November 2002, Week 1
October 2002, Week 5
October 2002, Week 4
October 2002, Week 3
October 2002, Week 2
October 2002, Week 1
September 2002, Week 5
September 2002, Week 4
September 2002, Week 3
September 2002, Week 2
September 2002, Week 1
August 2002, Week 5
August 2002, Week 4
August 2002, Week 3
August 2002, Week 2
August 2002, Week 1
July 2002, Week 5
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July 2002, Week 3
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July 2002, Week 1
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April 2002, Week 1
March 2002, Week 5
March 2002, Week 4
March 2002, Week 3
March 2002, Week 2
March 2002, Week 1
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February 2002, Week 1
January 2002, Week 5
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February 1999, Week 3
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February 1999, Week 1
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December 1998, Week 5
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