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AUXLANG  January 2009, Week 3

AUXLANG January 2009, Week 3

Subject:

Re: A look at Occidental

From:

MacLeod Dave <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

International Auxiliary Languages <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Tue, 20 Jan 2009 15:25:26 +0900

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (134 lines)

> Dave,
> Some general comments.
> It is one thing to create a course for practice. But, usually that course is
> presented to the public after the writer becomes really proficient with the
> language. I would not want a course on Occidental by a learner.
> As to the wiki page on Occidental. Personally, that is not for me a high
> priority. Occidental pages by Occidentalists is much more important. To me
> folks should be helping sites like interlingue.org, interlingue.com,
> cosmoglotta.org and .com, etc. grow and succeed. While at the same time
> presenting Occidental in a practical way on their own sites. There is no
> need for a large number of sites with grammars and vocabularies. Text, text,
> text is needed with real messages in them.
> People can read the material in most cases without grammars and vocabs.
> More folks who are interested in Occidental should encourage Werner and
> Plavec to produce more material. I have offered them for instance the full
> use of cosmoglotta.org for the jurnal. Whether they will use it or not I
> don't know yet. But they should be encouraged by others than me to do so.
> Even Sr. Plavec wrote Sr. Werner that it would be good to have a site with
> cosmoglotta as the domain name.
> I have done some things in the background as you know, to help move
> Occidental forward. I did some of it in a way that some didn't like, but it
> kept the name Occidental in people's minds. And, in the long term that is
> paying off.
> The biggest lack as I see it in the IAL field is a thing called comaraderie.
> Everyone wants to be a lone ranger and lead the charge. No one wants to be
> part of the group that actually gets the work done. Ergo, a lot of languages
> and no impact on the world.
> It seems that folks today, unlike in the beginning of Occidental, have no
> concept of group impact. They only think in terms of the language doing it
> all because it is perfect, "or will be perfect when I get through with it".
> It's time frankly, to back the Interlingue-Union, Sr. Werner and Plavec, and
> others. Otherwise the world will see a bunch of lone rangers trying to pull
> off everything separately, and it just won't work that way.
> Another thing, this idea of FREE grammars, vocabs, etc. so masses of people
> will take up Occidental. That is, in my mind, utter nonsense, and lack of
> understanding of how people work.
> Occidental should be sold for what it really is. I.e. the most valuable IAL
> ever developed. And, it should be sold as an exclusive language only for the
> elite of the world. Then, when it becomes successful in that arena, by then
> the rest of the world will want to use it too.
> Like it or not, the old methods and personal preferences of individuals
> theorizing on how to move the IAL idea to the world will NEVER EVER work.
> Not then, not now, not in the future.
> IF Occidental is worth getting behind, then it is worth PUSHING in a way
> that makes it worthwhile to learn and use. And, that won't be done by free
> manuals, lessons, vocabs, and wiki pages.
> Exclusive, and I mean exclusive, information MUST be presented on the net in
> Occidental. Material that is new, is COPYRIGHTED, and SOLD, No more of this
> false idea, bluntly presented, that says, "HEY, it is OK to STEAL the work
> of others and put it up on the Internet for FREE so everyone will use it,
> because everything should be FREE, there should be no money made with this
> material....".
> And, the reason this is done by so many on the Internet is that they truly
> are thieves, and POOR, and are not themselves willing to pay for anything
> they can steal under the guise of everyone should have it available to them.
> Also, there seems to be absolutely NO UNDERSTANDING in the auxlang field
> that the reason for making money with Occidental, or any other language, is
> so it can be PROPERLY PROMOTED and sustained.
> I would suggest for all on this list, and any who just read it that they do
> this first, before ever trying to promote their favorite language.
> TAKE A CLASS IN MARKETING and SALESMANSHIP. Otherwise you WILL fail, period.
> And, there is no rebuttal to that fact.
> The only language we know of here that is considered the "standard" of
> growth, at least at times, is Esperanto. AND, it is the only one that had
> some people who, as a group, SOLD it HARD to their area of the world.
> The language itself never took it where it got. What got it there? SALES,
> and more sales. It's called marketing, folks. And, there is no understanding
> here of what that is or why.
> The only understanding about marketing here is the false one, which is: Oh,
> we can't market these languages, they must be free. Why? Because they aren't
> worth a mouse dropping, so they should not be paid for.
> In actual fact, considering all the effort to bring them into existence, and
> the many hundreds of people who helped, then they should be sold for a
> fortune each.
> And, if anyone does not believe that about their favorite language, then
> they aren't really behind that language. They are just playing games in
> their heads, and pretending that lightening will strike....
> someday....somewhere....sometime, but not for "me".
> Well, that's a little more than I meant to say, but there it is.
> Bob
> Robert Petry
> News & Accurate Prophecy http://www.64prn.com
> Occidental (Cosmoglotta Biblioteca) http://www.interlingue.com
> Occidental (Cosmoglotta Weblog) http://www.cosmoglotta.com
> http://www.dreamhost.com/donate.cgi?id=10598
>

Well, let's see how much we can agree on. I do agree that auxlangs
should be able to provide profit, and too much focus on making
everything free can make a language look cheap. On the other hand I
think as much content should be made as free as possible. In practical
terms what this means is for example translating books into a
language, making the content itself free but also selling the books in
real form as well. This is what real languages do; you can find Moby
Dick online for free as it has no copyright but it's still much more
pleasing to get it in book form.

Re: Wikibooks - this can be edited by anybody so there's no problem
with a new user making a course if other more experienced users have
their eyes on it.

Promoting a language and dictionaries: what attracted me most to
Occidental was actually just Kjell using it here all the time. I also
respect Olivier's opinion a lot and his approval of Occidental as the
best solution was also important. I actually started wanting to use
the language around last summer, but the much larger dictionaries in
Interlingua kept me there for a bit longer because I like to write
about a whole host of subjects. If there had been a really large
Occidental dictionary available right at the start I might have been
using Occ only since then. Once I started to understand derivation a
bit better I decided that maybe I could make it without a huge
Interlingua-style dictionary, and the fact that another improved
dictionary should be out soon is also a very good thing.

Re: Working alone - I don't know about others but I always work best
alone or in small groups. Working alone I got the Wikipedia article on
Ido to the front page of Wikipedia in 2005 and brought the number of
articles on the Wikipedia from a few thousand to over 10,000. That was
around the time I started experimenting with other IALs so my work on
Ido alone kind of dropped off then. I also forgot about working and
making money and remembered that I needed to do that to survive.
Working in groups is good but I like the progress to be as fast as
possible. I find that a lot of the time I start alone and eventually
find ways to incorporate other people into an effort.

Re: Esperanto: Quite a few people are able to make some money off of
Esperanto, and that's a good thing. Note though that for beginners an
Esperantist will always suggest going to lernu.net first, which is all
free. I think this should be emulated. Beginners need as easy an
introduction as possible to a language.

-- 
http://mithridates.blogspot.com

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December 2003, Week 5
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December 2002, Week 1
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January 2002, Week 1
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June 2001, Week 5
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June 2001, Week 1
May 2001, Week 5
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May 2001, Week 3
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May 2001, Week 1
April 2001, Week 5
April 2001, Week 4
April 2001, Week 3
April 2001, Week 2
April 2001, Week 1
March 2001, Week 5
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March 2001, Week 3
March 2001, Week 2
March 2001, Week 1
February 2001, Week 4
February 2001, Week 3
February 2001, Week 2
February 2001, Week 1
January 2001, Week 5
January 2001, Week 4
January 2001, Week 3
January 2001, Week 2
January 2001, Week 1
December 2000, Week 5
December 2000, Week 4
December 2000, Week 3
December 2000, Week 2
December 2000, Week 1
November 2000, Week 5
November 2000, Week 4
November 2000, Week 3
November 2000, Week 2
November 2000, Week 1
October 2000, Week 5
October 2000, Week 4
October 2000, Week 3
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October 2000, Week 1
September 2000, Week 5
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September 2000, Week 3
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September 2000, Week 1
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March 2000, Week 2
March 2000, Week 1
February 2000, Week 5
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February 2000, Week 1
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December 1999, Week 5
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December 1998, Week 5
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May 1998, Week 1
April 1998, Week 5
April 1998, Week 4
April 1998, Week 3
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April 1998, Week 1
March 1998, Week 5
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February 1998, Week 5
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December 1997, Week 5
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