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AUXLANG  January 2009, Week 3

AUXLANG January 2009, Week 3

Subject:

Re: A look at Occidental

From:

steve rice <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

[log in to unmask]

Date:

Wed, 21 Jan 2009 09:36:35 -0800

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (88 lines)

--- On Tue, 1/20/09, Risto Kupsala <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

> Steve Rice wrote:
> > --- On Sun, 1/18/09, Risto Kupsala wrote:
> >> An ideal worldlang is more international, more
> durable and
> >> more neutral than any narrowly based IAL. *It's
> all
> >> there, it's only a matter of time before
> somebody
> >> manages to put it together.*

Emphasis added. You might want to read the section carefully; it is the basis for my remarks.

> > Your thinking is simply Gode writ globally: it already
> exists; if we put it
> > together, like Frankenstein's creature, it will
> come alive and take over the
> > world. Notice how well that concept has worked for
> Interlingua in Europe and
> > America.
> 
> It's very different.

It's very similar, and the differences aren't in your favor.
 
> Interlingua combines together the Latinate part of French,
> Italian, "Iberian" and English, which is something
> like 60-95% in each of them, English being the least and
> Italian being the most Latinate. The resulting language is
> very close to all of its sources in terms of lexical
> similarity. That is what Gode aimed at, it should be the
> greatest strength of Interlingua (and many other Eurolangs
> alike), but it just hasn't worked well, as Steve
> implies.

But this isn't what I was talking about. I referred to Gode's view (found in other projects such as Occidental and Glosa) that the interlanguage already exists in latent form and needs only to discovered and used. That is what your quote at the top of the message says.

But Gode had a stronger case than you do, and it applies as well to Occ and other "Eurolangs": the words aren't simply yanked out of their linguistic context; they retain their old associations, linguistic, historical, literary, and so on. That's the whole reason for claiming that Ia (etc. ) isn't artificial and wasn't created.

But what of the worldlangs? As Dave has pointed out, forms (not words as such) are yanked out of their proper context, like removing organs from a group of people and trying to cobble them together into a new person. An average heart here, an average liver there, and after a while, a statistically average human being has been created.

Maybe.

I admit that I do something similar with my English-based project, borrowing forms but not all the meanings that go with them; but the very fact that I'm borrowing from a single source still gives a general context, if only a backdrop.

A case in point: there are languages that have no word for "hope." That doesn't bother a "Eurolanger" at all, because his source languages do have that concept. (So does mine.) But since you're taking a global view, you can't dismiss that issue. You have no specific basis for your semantic divisions, unless you want to analyze the semantics of however many source languages you may have. And unlike the "European" languages, your sources will lack unity, leaving the problem of what to keep or avoid.

How do you handle the concept of "knowing"? Is there one general word, as in English? Do you distinguish between knowing a fact and knowing a person? Between experiential and abstract knowledge? What is your basis for making whatever distinctions you have?
 
> Why? Some potential reasons come to my mind. First, such
> constructed language puts itself in competition with very
> similar natural languages that have lots more to offer. It
> is an imitation, and people want the real thing. Second,
> such language is not very innovative, in fact it is rather
> dull. Esperanto is the most original language of the
> Eurolang lot and it is the most popular. Coincidence?

The first point is stronger; "dullness" is more important to language geeks than to real human beings, who actually prefer dullness/familiarity in some cases. Dana's mentioned the competition issue before, and it derives from a misunderstanding: only an idiot would compete with English or even Sardinian.

So we don't compete; we expand or complement. My goal for my project is not to compete with English--at least not directly. It is to supplement English by providing a version that is more user-friendly yet still relatively compatible with the existing version. If you're ticked off at this language you can't seem to master, my project is a punching bag where you can vent your frustration. But it's also an English you can master, without a bunch of snooty native speakers correcting you: "You're wrong simply because we say so." And it's an English you can use for communication with real English-speakers. They've probably heard weird English before, especially in an international context. And this version is unusually self-consistent, so it's especially easy to pick up.

> Then worldlangs. They are innovative embodiments of
> diversity. They are not meant to resemble any existing
> languages. 

So they have no true semantic base.

They make use of the good old utilitarian idea of
> re-using international words, but it is done in a
> distributed and fair way. That's very different from
> Gode, who denounced the idea of a global mix. 

And you don't seem to understand why. Not just because the result would lack a cohesive target demographic, though that's the main reason most people ascribe to him. Rather, it's because the result would lack a foundation: it would be a mass of lexical forms and grammatical rules in search of a language.

Similarly, Tolkien eventually rejected Eo because he said it needed a mythology to grow out of. (He evidently wasn't up on the quasi-Arthurian elements of the Ido schism.) His error was that Eo grew up in a European context, so it adapted and adopted that foundation initially, giving it the foundation it needed. As it expanded beyond Europe, it began picking up other foundations as well, not replacing the original but augmenting it. The process is not over by any means, and it will also come to Occ and others as they spread. But they will do it gradually, not all at once.

Possible
> combinations of world's languages are unlimited, which
> makes worldlangs unpredictable and exciting.

And unpredictability in this case is a bad thing. Would you buy an unpredictable computer? (Intentionally buy it, I mean.) I prefer boring cars, computers, parachutes, and such. In talking to a cop or a clerk at a store, I'd want a boring, predictable language.
 
Steve


      

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