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CONLANG  April 2009, Week 2

CONLANG April 2009, Week 2

Subject:

Re: ts (<: Phonotactics)

From:

R A Brown <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Fri, 10 Apr 2009 08:33:15 +0100

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (176 lines)

Garth Wallace wrote:
> On Thu, Apr 9, 2009 at 2:29 PM, Paul Kershaw <[log in to unmask]>
> wrote:
>>> From: R A Brown <[log in to unmask]> Mark J. Reed wrote:
>>>> Is the onset of , for Anglophones who "pronounce the [t]", 
>>>> actually [t_s], or is it simply [ts]?
>>> Mine is [t_s] - the instances I've heard sound like an affricate
>>> rather than a cluster. certainly in Japanese - and that's the
>>> language that began this particular thread - it's [t_s] (and
>>> phonemically /t/).
>> For me, it appears to be [ts]. It certainly sounds to me like I
>> usually resegment /tonkatu/ to [toN$kat$su] rather than
>> [toN$ka$t_su] (or is it [toN$ka_0$t_su] in Japanese? My memory on
>> devoiced vowels is rusty), although I'm not sure if that's
>> definitive evidence for word-initial.

Two points here:
(a) We were talking about _initial_ [ts] which must be a syllable onset.
Medial [ts] in _English_ is always AFAIK split between two syllables, as 
Gareth explains below.
(b) The occurrence of _initial_ [ts] in English is *marginal* since (i)
it occurs only in a very few words of foreign origin, and (ii) it is
probably a small minority of English speakers that give these few words 
an initial [ts].

Therefore IMO it is simply not worth the bandwidth arguing whether, in
_English_, *initial* [ts], when it occurs, is a true affricate or just a
an initial cluster.

> In Japanese it really is [toN.ka.ts)u]. It's common for anglophones
> to split the affricate into separate coda [t] and onset [s], but it's
>  pretty clearly the case that the alveolar stop is not part of the 
> preceding syllable (except when geminated).

Agreed. Yes, in Japanese, [ts] in whatever position is an affricate; it
is not split between syllables; furthermore, it is just a realization of 
the _phoneme_ /t/ before /u/.

> Is it even possible for an allophone to split like that?

IMHO no.
--------------------------------------------------

Gary Shannon wrote:
 > --- On Thu, 4/9/09, Paul Kershaw <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
 >
 >> ... in English,
 >> stop+fricative clusters are not generally permitted in word
 >> initial position (*bv, etc.), so either the affricates need
 >> to be considered as a single-consonant phoneme in English or
 >> that apparent rule needs to be revised.
 >
 > If I understand this, then comparing "ts" in "catsup" and "ts" in
 > "tsunami", we are allowed to call the first "ts" a consonant cluster,

No - the _ts_ in _catsup_ is not a consonant cluster. A cluster is when 
we have two or more consonants *occurring as the onset or coda of a 
syllable.*

In _catsup_ we have two syllables: cat-sup /k&t.sVp/. The /t/ is the 
coda of the first syllable and /s/ is the onset of the second.

 > but we are not allowed to call the same sound in "tsunami" a 
consonant > cluster because it is the initial sound, and initial sounds 
are not
 > permitted to be called consonant clusters in English.

Initial cluster are _very common_ in English!!

 > hehe. This is very confusing. :)

Because, I think, a clear distinction is not being made between English 
& Japanese.

In Japanese there is no doubt that the initial sound of _tsunami_ is a 
single affricate.

In English probably most people pronounce it simply with an initial [s] 
only. Whether we should call the initial sound of those _anglophones_ 
who pronounce _tsunami_ with initial [ts] an affricate or a consonant 
cluster is a moot point and, for reasons I've explained above, IMO 
simply not worth arguing about.
----------------------------------

Paul Kershaw wrote:
 > ----- Original Message ----
 >
 >> From: Roger Mills <[log in to unmask]> You're comparing apples
 >> (Engl. phonology) and oranges (Jap. phonology). [ts] is a cluster
 >> in Engl. because in native words it (1) only occurs over a syllable
 >> or morpheme boundary, (2) never initially. I doubt we could find a
 >> minimal pair /t/:*/ts/ except maybe itty-bitty vs. itsy-bitsy**
 >> Ergo, not a _phoneme_ but a cluster.  In Japanese, [ts] is indeed
 >> an allophone of the phoneme /t/ preceding /u/, and pronouncing it
 >> so is probably as natural and automatic for a Japanese speaker as
 >> aspirating /p t k/ is for us.
 >
 > I found this confusing. For one thing, many linguists say that a
 > consonant cluster *can't* occur over a syllable boundary (that is, by
 > that definition, /ts/ in /c&t$sUp/ is not a consonant cluster because
 > /t/ and /s/ are in different syllables).

Exactly!

[snip]

 >> Similarly Engl. [tS, dZ] _are_ phonemic//not clusters because they
 >> can occur initially, medially, finally and there are lots of
 >> minimal pairs. [tS] as we've been discussing, can also occur over a
 >> word boundary.

Yep.

 > [N] cannot occur initially in English; in standard dialects, [h] can
 > only occur initially. There are no minimal pairs contrasting these.
 > And yet it's only the most obstreperous of linguists who would posit
 > /h/ with allophones [h] and [N].

I have come occasionally across such obstreperous linguists(?)!  But I 
agree that positing [h] & [N] as allophones of /h/ (or /N/) is silly and 
unhelpful.

[snip]
 >
 > To go back to the original issue, though, a question for the list: If
 > /t_s/ is not in fact an English phoneme, then how do we treat
 > "tse-tse," "tsunami," etc. (including the contrastive
 > <tsars>/<SARS>), when said with [ts]?

We say either that /t_s/ is a phoneme for a minority of anglophones or 
we treat it as a cluster. In my view, its occurrence is so marginal that 
it's not worth arguing over.

 > Is Gary correct that, in
 > English, /ts/ is an initial consonant cluster in these loan words?

But that is _not_ how I understood Gary's question. I quote the original 
email:
(quote}
--- On Wed, 4/8/09, <deinx nxtxr> <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

 > >  On the
 > > other hand Japanese has a (C)V(N) syllable shape, and some
 > > polynesian languages have (C)V using no consonant clusters
 > > at all.

I thought "tsunami" was a Japanese word. I can't think of
any native Enlgish words that start with a "TS" cluster.

--gary
(/quote}

It seemed to me that Gary was questioning what Deinx had said about 
_Japanese_, i.e. that some Japanese words did appear to have an initial 
consonant cluster.

I hope this thread has made it clear that Deinx was correct about 
Japanese and that the initial sound of *Japanese* _tsunami_ /tunami/ is 
not a cluster.

As far the English is concerned, I suspect the majority pronounce simple 
[s] at the beginning (i.e. _not_ a cluster); whether those of us who do 
pronounce [ts] have a cluster or a simple affricate is IMO not worth 
arguing about.

-- 
Ray
==================================
http://www.carolandray.plus.com
==================================
"Ein Kopf, der auf seine eigene Kosten denkt,
wird immer Eingriffe in die Sprache thun."
[J.G. Hamann, 1760]
"A mind that thinks at its own expense
will always interfere with language".

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December 2005, Week 1
November 2005, Week 5
November 2005, Week 4
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November 2005, Week 1
October 2005, Week 5
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October 2005, Week 1
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April 2005, Week 5
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April 2005, Week 1
March 2005, Week 5
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January 2005, Week 1
December 2004, Week 5
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December 2004, Week 3
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December 2004, Week 1
November 2004, Week 5
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June 2003, Week 5
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January 2003, Week 5
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January 2003, Week 1
December 2002, Week 5
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December 2002, Week 1
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October 2002, Week 5
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October 2002, Week 3
October 2002, Week 2
October 2002, Week 1
September 2002, Week 5
September 2002, Week 4
September 2002, Week 3
September 2002, Week 2
September 2002, Week 1
August 2002, Week 5
August 2002, Week 4
August 2002, Week 3
August 2002, Week 2
August 2002, Week 1
July 2002, Week 5
July 2002, Week 4
July 2002, Week 3
July 2002, Week 2
July 2002, Week 1
June 2002, Week 5
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June 2002, Week 3
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June 2002, Week 1
May 2002, Week 5
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May 2002, Week 1
April 2002, Week 5
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March 2002, Week 5
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March 2002, Week 3
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December 2001, Week 5
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December 2001, Week 2
December 2001, Week 1
November 2001, Week 5
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October 2001, Week 3
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October 2001, Week 1
September 2001, Week 5
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May 2001, Week 1
April 2001, Week 5
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April 2001, Week 3
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April 2001, Week 1
March 2001, Week 5
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January 2000, Week 3
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January 2000, Week 1
December 1999, Week 5
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November 1999, Week 5
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December 1998, Week 5
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