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CONLANG Home

CONLANG Home

CONLANG  April 2009, Week 2

CONLANG April 2009, Week 2

Subject:

Re: ts (<: Phonotactics)

From:

Roger Mills <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

[log in to unmask]

Date:

Thu, 9 Apr 2009 20:57:14 -0700

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (29 lines)

Gary Shannon wrote:

> If I understand this, then comparing "ts" in
> "catsup" and "ts" in
> "tsunami", we are allowed to call the first
> "ts" a consonant cluster, but we are not allowed
> to call the same sound in "tsunami" a consonant
> cluster because it is the initial sound, and initial sounds
> are not permitted to be called consonant clusters in
> English.
> 
> hehe. This is very confusing. :)
> 
You're comparing apples (Engl. phonology) and oranges (Jap. phonology). [ts] is a cluster in Engl. because in native words it (1) only occurs over a syllable or morpheme boundary, (2) never initially. I doubt we could find a minimal pair /t/:*/ts/ except maybe itty-bitty vs. itsy-bitsy** Ergo, not a _phoneme_ but a cluster.  In Japanese, [ts] is indeed an allophone of the phoneme /t/ preceding /u/, and pronouncing it so is probably as natural and automatic for a Japanese speaker as aspirating /p t k/ is for us.  

-------
** someone will surely come up with at least one more......:-))) Umm, Patsy::patty (but proper names don't count for some of us...as for slang patsy, I don't know where it comes from. And "curtsy" I'd guess is a contraction of "courtesy"
-----------

Similarly Engl. [tS, dZ] _are_ phonemic//not clusters because they can occur initially, medially, finally and there are lots of minimal pairs. [tS] as we've been discussing, can also occur over a word boundary.

> I guess that's why I've always taken a more trial
> and error approach to conlang building.

Still, it seems to work for you......:-)))))


      

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