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CONLANG  April 2009, Week 2

CONLANG April 2009, Week 2

Subject:

Re: ts (<: Phonotactics)

From:

Tristan McLeay <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Fri, 10 Apr 2009 09:25:02 +0200

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (56 lines)

On 10/04/09 04:01:44, Paul Kershaw wrote:
> > From: Gary Shannon <[log in to unmask]>
> > If I understand this, then comparing "ts" in "catsup" and "ts" in
> "tsunami", we 
> > are allowed to call the first "ts" a consonant cluster, but we are
> not allowed 
> > to call the same sound in "tsunami" a consonant cluster because it
> is the 
> > initial sound, and initial sounds are not permitted to be called
> consonant 
> > clusters in English.
> 
> There are initial consonant clusters in English, such as /sp/
> (spider), /br/ (bring), /str/ (stripe), etc. It's just that, for
> complex reasons (that maybe someone else can have a go at), 
> affricates
> are (often) considered single consonants even though they are
> effectively a stop+fricative pair.

Gary, don't be dismayed. It's simple, actually, not complex: Do you 
think of "ch" /tS/ as being complex, or as a simple sound? If someone 
asked you to find words that began with the same sound as "top" [t-] 
you might come up with "twenty" [tw-], but you wouldn't come up with 
"choose" [tS-]. Assuming "you" is a linguistically-naive person.

Similarly, if though you might say the "ttr" [-tr-] in "buttress" are 
part of one syllable (I would), if someone said "actually, I pronounce 
it across two syllables", you would immediately understand that the 
division they have in mind is [-t.r-]. If that happened with the 
"tch" [-tS-] in "catching", you would struggle to identify where the 
possible syllable break is. 

If you prefer a more phonetic analysis you'll notice that when someone 
says [ts] in English the duration of the [t] and [s] are comparable to 
the duration of a normal /t/ and a normal /s/ (the [t] is released, and 
then the frication for [s] begins; the aspiration associated with a 
stop in English comes after the /t/ but before the /s/, assuming 
aspiration in this context). 

Contrast that with [tS] which is run somewhat together (the [t] is 
released *into* the [S]; the aspiration associated with a stop in 
English comes *after* the whole [tS)] complex). English doesn't 
(usually) have /ts)/; (most) people who pronounce "tsunami" with a /t/ 
are just using a cluster. (Well, in some dialects an aspirated /t/ is 
more or less affricated, but even when it is, it still sounds more /t/-
y than /ts/-y.

NB. The important aspect of an affricate isn't that you have a stop 
followed by a fricative at the same POA, it's that the stop is released 
*into* the fricative at the same POA, in such a way that you can't say 
"this part is the release of the stop; this part is the frication", 
because they're the same thing.

--
Tristan.

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