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CONLANG  April 2009, Week 3

CONLANG April 2009, Week 3

Subject:

Re: Null aspect

From:

R A Brown <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Tue, 21 Apr 2009 14:31:35 +0100

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (210 lines)

Eugene Oh wrote:
> I called it the "stative" not by any formal linguistic characterisation, but
> in parallel to the formation of the perfect aspect -- the "logic" being that
> they are parallel, and that taking a snapshot of a moment when the
> imperfective verb is in action will give you the progressive, much as taking
> that same snapshot with a perfective verb will give you the perfect, if that
> makes sense. 

Sort of   ;)

> It's not a hard and fast label, just a table heading, and if
> it's not accurate and there's a better name I'll be glad to change it. 

OK - I'll read on and see if I can make sensible suggestions. My own 
feeling is that if some term or other is already established it is 
preferable not to overload it with yet another meaning/usage as this can 
(and does) cause confusion.

'Stative' contrasts with 'dynamic'. For example, out of context "The 
window was broken" is ambiguous as to whether a stative or dynamic 
meaning is intended. But "The window was broken by Pete" is dynamic and 
"The window was broken all week" is stative. Some languages, indeed, do 
distinguish more clearly between stative & dynamic, e.g. German "Die 
Fenster war gebrochen" can have only a stative meaning, whereas "Die 
Fenster wurde gebrochen" is dynamic.

> The
> opposition I was thinking of can be phrased as "State: moving vs.
> freeze-frame".
> E.g. to write (ser-, PRFV; seir-, IMPF):
> seroute - write.PRFV.STAT = write.PERF = he has/had written (a letter)

I think we must be careful here. There appears to be a confusion between 
the perfective and perfect aspects which are _entirely distinct_. It is 
IMO singularly unfortunate that similar names have become used for the 
two aspects. The culprit once again is Latin; it used its "perfect 
tense" to express both the 'present perfect' and the 'past perfective' 
meanings.

Unlike Latin, ancient Greek distinguished the two - its "perfect tense" 
had only the 'present perfect' meaning, the 'past perfective' being 
expressed by the "aorist tense". (In the Hellenistic period, sadly, the 
two did get confused)

"He has written (a letter)" could be present perfect, i.e. he's written 
it and and here it is. The perfect aspect expresses a state resulting 
from an earlier even. He's been writing and the result is the letter 
(which you see).

But one has to be careful because the English 'present tense' is not 
always used with strictly perfect meaning. In some style it expresses a 
past tense; and modern colloquial British & American usage of the 
"perfect tense" and the "past simple" varies considerably - as I notice 
for example when my daughter visits, when she will ask question like 
"Did you eat yet?" where we Brits would have asked "Have you eaten yet?"  ;)

Trask notes that the 'perfect aspect' is somewhat anomalous among 
aspects (see also the so-called 'perfect progressive' below) and that 
its characterization is a matter of controversy; according to him, 
Bernard Comrie and Östen Dahl take different views on this (but he 
doesn't elaborate on this). If such authorities as Comrie & Dahl, both 
of whom have made detailed studies of verbal aspect, differ over the 
perfect aspect, then I think we shouldn't be surprised if it 
occasionally causes headaches for us lesser mortals   :)

> seiri - write.IMPF.STAT = write.PROG = he is/was/has been writing (a letter)

"is writing" is dynamic, not stative. The 'progressive aspect' is one 
possible subcategory of the 'imperfective aspect'; other are, for 
example, 'habitual' and 'iterative'. Unless you are going to distinguish 
between different subcategories of imperfective, why complicate the 
issue by using both 'imperfective' and 'progressive'?

While certainly "he is writing" is 'present progressive' and "he was 
writing" is 'past progressive', "he has been writing" is more problematic.

You get what appears to be a progressive subdivision of the perfect, not 
the imperfective aspect! In English such forms are typically used to 
express what has been called the 'perfect of persistent situation', e.g. 
"Lisa has been working here all week." Some languages, e.g. French, 
Latin & Esperanto, use the _present tense_ for this. Some people refer 
to this as the 'perfect progressive aspect'   :)

> 
> The table I am working with is a 3R x 2C table. The rows are labelled
> "perfective aspect", "imperfective aspect" and "future tense". The first
> column is unlabelled, because I don't know what to label it, and the second
> is labelled "stative" for now. 

Oh - the rows seem to mix aspect and tense! In ancient Greek the future 
indicative, subjunctive etc. constitute a discrete _aspectual_ system, 
contrasting with the imperfective ('present stem'), perfective ('aorist 
stem') and perfect ('perfect stem') aspects, namely the prospective aspect.

Perhaps we'd better hold fire on the labels for both columns. Indeed, I 
am not clear what the two columns are intended to show.

> What I am still trying to figure out is which
> cell corresponds to what specific verb form(s) in various natlangs and what
> their names are. I'm using French, Chinese and Japanese for their relative
> tense structure which is a less confusing fit for Arithide.

One has to be careful with French since, like many western European 
languages it does not separate tense and aspect. Indeed, the 'passé 
composé" (e.g. j'ai vu = I saw/ have seen) may express either present 
tense + perfect aspect _or_ past tense and perfective aspect, just like 
the Latin "perfect tense"; the conditionals in French are also a subject 
of controversy.

Chinese has no formal tense markers and only optional aspect markers: 
-le (perfective), -zhe (durative), and -guo (experiential). I'm not sure 
how that'll map to your table. I know far too little about Japanese to 
comment on that language.

> In particular, which cell probably corresponds best to the so-called
> "present"? How should I reconsider the way to express "John eats an orange"
> (if I should at all; under the existing paradigm, I use the perfective--no
> "stative" here to trip people up)?

Imperfective, surely - tho to my ears it's not a complete a sentence. I 
would expect something "John eats an orange every now and then", "John 
eats an orange with his breakfast", ""John eats an orange in six seconds 
flat',etc., etc. The 'simple present' in English usually denotes 
habitual action.

> I tried out translating some sentences I made up to compare and contrast the
> ways in which tense/mood/aspect are marked in the three aforementioned
> natlangs, and found that the following sentences would be translated in
> exactly the same way in Arithide:
> 
> (a) If it rains, I will stay. (future-future)
English has present-future; Latin would have 'future perfect'+future.

> (b) If it is raining, I will stay. (present-future)
> (c) If it was raining, I will stay. (past-future)
> 
> Orios numōn do lestomai.
> rain.NOM fall.SUBJUNC if stay.FUT
> 
> But this one is translated differently:
> 
> If it has rained, I will stay. (perfect-future)

The first is formally 'present perfect' in English but, as I observed 
above, English does not always clearly distinguish between present 
perfect and past perfective. Out of context, the first part could be either.
> 
> Orios numasiōn do lestomai.
> rain.NOM fall.PERF.SUBJ if stay.FUT
> 
> As are these:
> 
> If it had rained, I would have stayed. (pluperfect-past)
> If it had rained, I would stay/be staying. (past-present)

Yep - but the English 'past perfect (pluperfect' is being used here 
because these are not true conditions, they are hypotheses. We know darn 
well that it didn't rain! Many languages use subjunctive mood here. 
Another common practice is to move the the verb to a more remote past 
form - that's what's happened in English. The second verb, however, in 
both examples would be considered some sort of 'conditional'. The form 
"would have stayed" was called, when I was at school, by the rather 
peculiar name "future perfect in the past'; many would call it more 
simply "perfect conditional". Certainly the verb has modal implications.
"I would stay" is similarly a present conditional form.

> Orios numōn do lesthei (stay.PERF.STAT).
> 
> Hope that made some sense.
> 
> But ah, now that I've gone back and revisited the sentences, the third,
> neutral (thanks Ray) aspect seems to be unnecessary and mersible (mergeable?
> neither word is in my spellchecker's dictionary; nor is "spellchecker") with
> the perfective. 

It could well be. Tho you might wish to have a situation like Chinese 
where an unmarked verb is ambiguous as to aspect or rather, the aspect 
is not considered relevant; but have two or three aspect markers where 
it is deemed aspect is relevant.

>  I'm getting very confused. And this is another reason why I
> didn't reiterate my wish to participate in the inverse relay -- I'm still
> unsettled about such a basic thing as the verb paradigm!  :( 

Aspect can be confusing (and, as I wrote above, not all the 'experts' 
are agreed on everything), especially for people whose L1 (e.g. English, 
French) does not clearly distinguish between tense and aspect. 
Personally, I think if you are getting confused regarding aspect, it 
would be better not to try to distill something from three language - 
French, Chines, Japanese - whose verbal structures are so very different.

Unless I really wanted to make life difficult for myself, I think, if I 
was uncertain about aspect, I would concentrate on the two superordinate 
aspects, imperfective ~ perfective, forget the trouble perfect aspect, 
and look more closely at languages that just make that two-fold 
distinction, e.g. the Slav languages & the Semitic languages.

I hope I've helped (but fear I may have added confusion   :(

-- 
Ray
==================================
http://www.carolandray.plus.com
==================================
"Ein Kopf, der auf seine eigene Kosten denkt,
wird immer Eingriffe in die Sprache thun."
[J.G. Hamann, 1760]
"A mind that thinks at its own expense
will always interfere with language".

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July 2007, Week 1
June 2007, Week 5
June 2007, Week 4
June 2007, Week 3
June 2007, Week 2
June 2007, Week 1
May 2007, Week 5
May 2007, Week 4
May 2007, Week 3
May 2007, Week 2
May 2007, Week 1
April 2007, Week 5
April 2007, Week 4
April 2007, Week 3
April 2007, Week 2
April 2007, Week 1
March 2007, Week 5
March 2007, Week 4
March 2007, Week 3
March 2007, Week 2
March 2007, Week 1
February 2007, Week 4
February 2007, Week 3
February 2007, Week 2
February 2007, Week 1
January 2007, Week 5
January 2007, Week 4
January 2007, Week 3
January 2007, Week 2
January 2007, Week 1
December 2006, Week 5
December 2006, Week 4
December 2006, Week 3
December 2006, Week 2
December 2006, Week 1
November 2006, Week 5
November 2006, Week 4
November 2006, Week 3
November 2006, Week 2
November 2006, Week 1
October 2006, Week 5
October 2006, Week 4
October 2006, Week 3
October 2006, Week 2
October 2006, Week 1
September 2006, Week 5
September 2006, Week 4
September 2006, Week 3
September 2006, Week 2
September 2006, Week 1
August 2006, Week 5
August 2006, Week 4
August 2006, Week 3
August 2006, Week 2
August 2006, Week 1
July 2006, Week 5
July 2006, Week 4
July 2006, Week 3
July 2006, Week 2
July 2006, Week 1
June 2006, Week 5
June 2006, Week 4
June 2006, Week 3
June 2006, Week 2
June 2006, Week 1
May 2006, Week 5
May 2006, Week 4
May 2006, Week 3
May 2006, Week 2
May 2006, Week 1
April 2006, Week 5
April 2006, Week 4
April 2006, Week 3
April 2006, Week 2
April 2006, Week 1
March 2006, Week 5
March 2006, Week 4
March 2006, Week 3
March 2006, Week 2
March 2006, Week 1
February 2006, Week 4
February 2006, Week 3
February 2006, Week 2
February 2006, Week 1
January 2006, Week 5
January 2006, Week 4
January 2006, Week 3
January 2006, Week 2
January 2006, Week 1
December 2005, Week 5
December 2005, Week 4
December 2005, Week 3
December 2005, Week 2
December 2005, Week 1
November 2005, Week 5
November 2005, Week 4
November 2005, Week 3
November 2005, Week 2
November 2005, Week 1
October 2005, Week 5
October 2005, Week 4
October 2005, Week 3
October 2005, Week 2
October 2005, Week 1
September 2005, Week 5
September 2005, Week 4
September 2005, Week 3
September 2005, Week 2
September 2005, Week 1
August 2005, Week 5
August 2005, Week 4
August 2005, Week 3
August 2005, Week 2
August 2005, Week 1
July 2005, Week 5
July 2005, Week 4
July 2005, Week 3
July 2005, Week 2
July 2005, Week 1
June 2005, Week 5
June 2005, Week 4
June 2005, Week 3
June 2005, Week 2
June 2005, Week 1
May 2005, Week 5
May 2005, Week 4
May 2005, Week 3
May 2005, Week 2
May 2005, Week 1
April 2005, Week 5
April 2005, Week 4
April 2005, Week 3
April 2005, Week 2
April 2005, Week 1
March 2005, Week 5
March 2005, Week 4
March 2005, Week 3
March 2005, Week 2
March 2005, Week 1
February 2005, Week 4
February 2005, Week 3
February 2005, Week 2
February 2005, Week 1
January 2005, Week 5
January 2005, Week 4
January 2005, Week 3
January 2005, Week 2
January 2005, Week 1
December 2004, Week 5
December 2004, Week 4
December 2004, Week 3
December 2004, Week 2
December 2004, Week 1
November 2004, Week 5
November 2004, Week 4
November 2004, Week 3
November 2004, Week 2
November 2004, Week 1
October 2004, Week 5
October 2004, Week 4
October 2004, Week 3
October 2004, Week 2
October 2004, Week 1
September 2004, Week 5
September 2004, Week 4
September 2004, Week 3
September 2004, Week 2
September 2004, Week 1
August 2004, Week 5
August 2004, Week 4
August 2004, Week 3
August 2004, Week 2
August 2004, Week 1
July 2004, Week 5
July 2004, Week 4
July 2004, Week 3
July 2004, Week 2
July 2004, Week 1
June 2004, Week 5
June 2004, Week 4
June 2004, Week 3
June 2004, Week 2
June 2004, Week 1
May 2004, Week 5
May 2004, Week 4
May 2004, Week 3
May 2004, Week 2
May 2004, Week 1
April 2004, Week 5
April 2004, Week 4
April 2004, Week 3
April 2004, Week 2
April 2004, Week 1
March 2004, Week 5
March 2004, Week 4
March 2004, Week 3
March 2004, Week 2
March 2004, Week 1
February 2004, Week 5
February 2004, Week 4
February 2004, Week 3
February 2004, Week 2
February 2004, Week 1
January 2004, Week 5
January 2004, Week 4
January 2004, Week 3
January 2004, Week 2
January 2004, Week 1
December 2003, Week 5
December 2003, Week 4
December 2003, Week 3
December 2003, Week 2
December 2003, Week 1
November 2003, Week 5
November 2003, Week 4
November 2003, Week 3
November 2003, Week 2
November 2003, Week 1
October 2003, Week 5
October 2003, Week 4
October 2003, Week 3
October 2003, Week 2
October 2003, Week 1
September 2003, Week 5
September 2003, Week 4
September 2003, Week 3
September 2003, Week 2
September 2003, Week 1
August 2003, Week 5
August 2003, Week 4
August 2003, Week 3
August 2003, Week 2
August 2003, Week 1
July 2003, Week 5
July 2003, Week 4
July 2003, Week 3
July 2003, Week 2
July 2003, Week 1
June 2003, Week 5
June 2003, Week 4
June 2003, Week 3
June 2003, Week 2
June 2003, Week 1
May 2003, Week 5
May 2003, Week 4
May 2003, Week 3
May 2003, Week 2
May 2003, Week 1
April 2003, Week 5
April 2003, Week 4
April 2003, Week 3
April 2003, Week 2
April 2003, Week 1
March 2003, Week 5
March 2003, Week 4
March 2003, Week 3
March 2003, Week 2
March 2003, Week 1
February 2003, Week 4
February 2003, Week 3
February 2003, Week 2
February 2003, Week 1
January 2003, Week 5
January 2003, Week 4
January 2003, Week 3
January 2003, Week 2
January 2003, Week 1
December 2002, Week 5
December 2002, Week 4
December 2002, Week 3
December 2002, Week 2
December 2002, Week 1
November 2002, Week 5
November 2002, Week 4
November 2002, Week 3
November 2002, Week 2
November 2002, Week 1
October 2002, Week 5
October 2002, Week 4
October 2002, Week 3
October 2002, Week 2
October 2002, Week 1
September 2002, Week 5
September 2002, Week 4
September 2002, Week 3
September 2002, Week 2
September 2002, Week 1
August 2002, Week 5
August 2002, Week 4
August 2002, Week 3
August 2002, Week 2
August 2002, Week 1
July 2002, Week 5
July 2002, Week 4
July 2002, Week 3
July 2002, Week 2
July 2002, Week 1
June 2002, Week 5
June 2002, Week 4
June 2002, Week 3
June 2002, Week 2
June 2002, Week 1
May 2002, Week 5
May 2002, Week 4
May 2002, Week 3
May 2002, Week 2
May 2002, Week 1
April 2002, Week 5
April 2002, Week 4
April 2002, Week 3
April 2002, Week 2
April 2002, Week 1
March 2002, Week 5
March 2002, Week 4
March 2002, Week 3
March 2002, Week 2
March 2002, Week 1
February 2002, Week 4
February 2002, Week 3
February 2002, Week 2
February 2002, Week 1
January 2002, Week 5
January 2002, Week 4
January 2002, Week 3
January 2002, Week 2
January 2002, Week 1
December 2001, Week 5
December 2001, Week 4
December 2001, Week 3
December 2001, Week 2
December 2001, Week 1
November 2001, Week 5
November 2001, Week 4
November 2001, Week 3
November 2001, Week 2
November 2001, Week 1
October 2001, Week 5
October 2001, Week 4
October 2001, Week 3
October 2001, Week 2
October 2001, Week 1
September 2001, Week 5
September 2001, Week 4
September 2001, Week 3
September 2001, Week 2
September 2001, Week 1
August 2001, Week 5
August 2001, Week 4
August 2001, Week 3
August 2001, Week 2
August 2001, Week 1
July 2001, Week 5
July 2001, Week 4
July 2001, Week 3
July 2001, Week 2
July 2001, Week 1
June 2001, Week 5
June 2001, Week 4
June 2001, Week 3
June 2001, Week 2
June 2001, Week 1
May 2001, Week 5
May 2001, Week 4
May 2001, Week 3
May 2001, Week 2
May 2001, Week 1
April 2001, Week 5
April 2001, Week 4
April 2001, Week 3
April 2001, Week 2
April 2001, Week 1
March 2001, Week 5
March 2001, Week 4
March 2001, Week 3
March 2001, Week 2
March 2001, Week 1
February 2001, Week 4
February 2001, Week 3
February 2001, Week 2
February 2001, Week 1
January 2001, Week 5
January 2001, Week 4
January 2001, Week 3
January 2001, Week 2
January 2001, Week 1
December 2000, Week 5
December 2000, Week 4
December 2000, Week 3
December 2000, Week 2
December 2000, Week 1
November 2000, Week 5
November 2000, Week 4
November 2000, Week 3
November 2000, Week 2
November 2000, Week 1
October 2000, Week 5
October 2000, Week 4
October 2000, Week 3
October 2000, Week 2
October 2000, Week 1
September 2000, Week 5
September 2000, Week 4
September 2000, Week 3
September 2000, Week 2
September 2000, Week 1
August 2000, Week 5
August 2000, Week 4
August 2000, Week 3
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July 2000, Week 1
June 2000, Week 5
June 2000, Week 4
June 2000, Week 3
June 2000, Week 2
June 2000, Week 1
May 2000, Week 5
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May 2000, Week 2
May 2000, Week 1
April 2000, Week 5
April 2000, Week 4
April 2000, Week 3
April 2000, Week 2
April 2000, Week 1
March 2000, Week 5
March 2000, Week 4
March 2000, Week 3
March 2000, Week 2
March 2000, Week 1
February 2000, Week 5
February 2000, Week 4
February 2000, Week 3
February 2000, Week 2
February 2000, Week 1
January 2000, Week 5
January 2000, Week 4
January 2000, Week 3
January 2000, Week 2
January 2000, Week 1
December 1999, Week 5
December 1999, Week 4
December 1999, Week 3
December 1999, Week 2
December 1999, Week 1
November 1999, Week 5
November 1999, Week 4
November 1999, Week 3
November 1999, Week 2
November 1999, Week 1
October 1999, Week 5
October 1999, Week 4
October 1999, Week 3
October 1999, Week 2
October 1999, Week 1
September 1999, Week 5
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September 1999, Week 3
September 1999, Week 2
September 1999, Week 1
August 1999, Week 5
August 1999, Week 4
August 1999, Week 3
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July 1999, Week 5
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July 1999, Week 3
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July 1999, Week 1
June 1999, Week 5
June 1999, Week 4
June 1999, Week 3
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June 1999, Week 1
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April 1999, Week 5
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April 1999, Week 1
March 1999, Week 5
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February 1999, Week 5
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February 1999, Week 1
January 1999, Week 5
January 1999, Week 4
January 1999, Week 3
January 1999, Week 2
January 1999, Week 1
December 1998, Week 5
December 1998, Week 4
December 1998, Week 3
December 1998, Week 2
December 1998, Week 1
November 1998, Week 5
November 1998, Week 4
November 1998, Week 3
November 1998, Week 2
November 1998, Week 1
October 1998, Week 5
October 1998, Week 4
October 1998, Week 3
October 1998, Week 2
October 1998, Week 1
September 1998, Week 5
September 1998, Week 4
September 1998, Week 3

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