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CONLANG Home

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CONLANG  April 2009, Week 3

CONLANG April 2009, Week 3

Subject:

Re: USAGE: Japanese question - parallelism and politesse

From:

Tristan McLeay <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Thu, 16 Apr 2009 12:39:11 +0200

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (81 lines)

On 16/04/09 02:36:46, Eugene Oh wrote:
> I think the point that's being made here is, "there is a perfectly
> cogent
> term for what you're trying to express, and the term you've chosen 
> has
> a
> more specific meaning than you intended, so it might be better to use
> the
> commonly accepted one".
> Being a linguistics list, it's kind of tough to put our collective
> foot down
> about where the line between descriptive permissiveness and
> prescriptive
> rigour should lie, isn't it? Tristan is making a perfectly legitimate
> semantic broadening (which we discuss so often), but should we accept
> it or
> continue to prefer that he use the accepted term?

I don't view "adposition" as the accepted term for what I'm using 
"preposition" for. "Adposition" is usually used as a collective term 
for prepositions and postpositions, and not sometimes for prepositions 
and sometimes for postpositions (no-one says "English adpositions go 
before the noun phrase they head" or "'into' is an English adposition"; 
they say "Adpositions head noun phrases, in some languages they go 
before the NP and they're called 'prepositions' and in others they go 
after and they're called 'postpositions'"). In either case we're making 
an extention: either allowing "preposition" to ignore where the 
preposition goes, or using "adposition" concretely. 

If you think the distinction I'm drawing between adpositions and (my) 
prepositions is petty, I think the distinction anyone else is drawing 
between my prepositions and yours is too.

(Also, "adposition" has been around for a while and failed to correct 
the mistake of a distinction between prep/postposition. It's had it's 
chance. I'm just finding another solution that I reckon will work 
better once everyone forgets the lies that their primary school English 
teachers taught.)

...

> I disagree about "pa" leniting to "wa" intervocalically via "ba",

I didn't mean to say that! If I did say that I was speaking in error. 
From your post it seems to me that what happened was:

  p -> b / rendaku contexts
  p -> p\ / when single
  p\ -> w / V_V
  w  -> 0 / _{eiou}
  p\ -> h / _{aieo} (exception purely phonetic)
  h  -> C / _{i} (purely phonetic)

I don't think anything that's been said contradicts that. /p/ regained 
phonemihood presumably because it was convenient and because [h] and 
[pp] don't seem like good pairs to be allophones so the relationship 
was obscured. The h~b distinction is no different from the t~d 
distinction: They exist for whatever reason, but didn't used to.

The ring on the p series of syllables I think dates back also to the 
spelling reform of the mid-twentieth century, so that implies for a 
long time it wasn't felt like it was an important-enough distinction. 
(IIUC pre-WW2 Japanese was pretty unphonetic --- maybe rivalling 
French. There's hope for English yet! Are there any contemporary 
awful ("unphonetic") syllabries?)

In any case, unless I've mispoken,[1] there's no scope for disputing 
the relationship between (intervocalic) /w/ and (initial) /h/ or 
(single) /h/ and (double) /p/. There were probably additional sources
(ISTR an earlier form of Japanese allowed Cwa clusters in much the same 
way modern Japanese allowes Cja clusters, for instance), but this much 
is clear .

[1]: I'm no expert on Japanese and my attempts to provide contexts are 
just approximations. But I'm trying to say afaik the basic idea I'm 
trying to communicate is right. We might be saying the same thing with 
different degrees of precision, of course.

--
Tristan.

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