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CONLANG Home

CONLANG Home

CONLANG  April 2009, Week 3

CONLANG April 2009, Week 3

Subject:

Re: vowels & vocoids (was: The rhotic as a vowel)

From:

R A Brown <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Thu, 16 Apr 2009 15:08:09 +0100

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (162 lines)

Tristan McLeay wrote:
> On 16/04/09 10:00:25, R A Brown wrote:
[snip]
[snip]
>> If they can be uttered as single utterance then clearly they are 
>> phonological words. There must be at least one syllabic nucleus in
>> each 
>> (probably more than one in some of the above examples). The syllabic 
>> nuclei are. be definition, _phonological vowels_.
> 
> *Why*? 

According to David Crystal: "Phonologically, [a vowel] is a unit which 
functions at the centre of syllables."

>>> Ahah! But how do you know "lrn" doesn't correspond to [l=rn=] ? :)
>> Because of the phonotactics of English.
> 
> Apparently you missed the smiley, and the tone of voice I used for 
> "Ahah!". Sorry!

Sorry, I didn't put a smiley at the end of my reply   :(

>> ==========================================
>>
>> Tristan McLeay wrote:
>> [snip]
>>  >
>>  > Which sound in [sxs] is a vowel, and why? (I'm asking to get an
>> answer,
>>  > not to score points.)
>>
>> One needs to hear the thing pronounced: (a) to make sure there is no 
>> epenthetic vowel involved or any other 'vowel coloring', and (b) to
>> know 
>> where the syllabic nucleus is (Is it [s=xs], [sx=s] or [sxs=]?). It 
>> would also be helpful to know the phonotactics of the language
>> concerned.
>>
>> So, sorry, without more data the question cannot be given a definite
>> answer.
> 
> Nonono! I didn't mean "in this particular language". I meant, how do we 
> know if it's pronounce [s=xs] or [sx=s] or [sxs=]? 

That's the point I was making! We _cannot_ tell from that transcription.

> If I randomly bumped 
> into a language no-one has ever described before and someone says [sxs] 
> and it turns out to mean "hello!", how will I be able to describe the 
> syllabification to other people

If someone _says_ it, you will *hear* which is the syllabic nucleus and 
which sounds appear at the margins. You may describe it by [s=xs] or 
[sx=s] or [sxs=], according to which is appropriate.

> ...
>>  >
>>  > It begins to make a mockery of vowels, with them as little more
>> than
>>  > carriers, and only recognisable in retrospect. I think this means
>> it
>>  > has little place in science.
>>
>> It doesn't make a mockery at all; it means that one has to 
>> *precisely* 
>> definie how one is using a word like 'vowel' which has more than one 
>> meaning according to different people's usage. That's one of the 
>> problems with natural languages    :)
> 
> I think you don't see where I'm finding it makes a mockery of the idea. 
> You're saying that (at least) one segment in [sxs] has to be a vowel/
> syllable nucleus, even if there's no way to distinguish it from the 
> other two. 

If [sxs] is a syllable, then it has a nucleus/center & margin(s). You 
distinguish by listening.

> It's there because it has to be there; but you haven't 
> established why it has to be there. (Okay, it has to be there, because 
> a syllable needs a nucleus, and it has to form a syllable, but you 
> haven't established why either of those are true.)

I hadn't realized that I needed to establish that a syllable needs to 
have a nucleus. If fact, at one point you appear to agree with me that 
it has to have one. To be honest, I just do not understand the four 
quoted lines above.
============================================================

Tristan McLeay, replying to Benct Philip Jonsson, wrote:
[snip]
 > It
 > seems to me there's nothing inherit in the nature of an utterance that
 > *requires* syllables and therefore syllable nuclei. Perhaps even
 > syllables don't exist phonetically, so [sx=s] has no intrinsic meaning,
 > only /sx=s/ does.

If you are using the term 'syllable' in a way different from the one 
I've been familiar with for many years, then it does get tricky to carry 
on a meaningful dialog. Tho having written that, I do concede that 
Crystal writes: "Providing a precise definition of syllable is not an 
easy task."

But it is clear, it seems to me, that Tristan & I are not understanding 
the same thing by the term 'syllable.' I could say that he is making a 
mockery of the word 'syllable'; but that would probably be as unfair as, 
IMO, it was when I was told I was making a mockery of the word 'vowel'.
===================================================

Lars Finsen wrote:
 > Den 15. apr. 2009 kl. 20.54 skreiv R A Brown:
 >
 >> A vocoid (phonetic vowel) is a sound lacking any closure or narrowing
 >> sufficient to produce friction. By this definition [r] is in fact a
 >> vowel, tho generally it functions like a consonant at the margins of
 >> syllables. This is Pike coined the term vocoid to describe all
 >> 'phonetic vowels'.
 >
 > But doesn't the r (in Sampa) denote an alveolar trill? How do you define
 > friction if the alveolar trill doesn't produce it?

You are correct. I wrote in haste. Yes, [r] is indeed a trill and, by 
Pike's definition, a contoid, not a vocoid. I was carelessly thinking of 
the alveolar approximant that I use, not the trill used by some of my 
fellow Brits!

Mea culpa!

 >> A phonological vowel is a unit which functions as the center of a
 >> syllable. In the Czech words above the <r> denotes the syllable
 >> nucleus or center, i.e. it denotes the _vowel_.
 >
 > I would rather have the term 'phonological vowel' mean any sound
 > (consonant or vowel) that functions (not 'can function' but 'functions')
 > as a syllable nucleus.

I agree.

 > Playing around with terminology can be fun, and
 > learned linguists seem to have a liking for creating terminology that
 > confuses the beginner, thus making the access to their circles limited.
 > But I think it makes more sense if the terminology makes sense...

It does.

I've since been looking up 'vowel' in various sources; it is confusing. 
It might have been better if 'vowel' had been reserved only for the 
sounds shown in the IPA 'vocalic quadrilateral', and that besides Pike's 
_vocoid_ for 'phonetic vowel', we had "voceme" for 'the sound that 
functions as the syllabic nucleus.' But we don't      ;)

-- 
Ray
==================================
http://www.carolandray.plus.com
==================================
"Ein Kopf, der auf seine eigene Kosten denkt,
wird immer Eingriffe in die Sprache thun."
[J.G. Hamann, 1760]
"A mind that thinks at its own expense
will always interfere with language".

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