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CONLANG Home

CONLANG Home

CONLANG  April 2009, Week 3

CONLANG April 2009, Week 3

Subject:

Re: The rhotic as a vowel

From:

R A Brown <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Wed, 15 Apr 2009 19:54:05 +0100

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (70 lines)

Scott Hlad wrote:
> The first thing I saw with this was Czech words that have no vowels at all.
> All three of those words would be legitimate words. Perhaps the idea isn't
> even so much that it is a vowel but whether your conlang will allow words
> without vowels. I have always loved the Czech tongue twister, "Strc prz skrz
> krk." /st4tS p4z sk4z k4k/. Coincidently the same type of construction that
> you have listed. 

{Groan} the Czech words _do_ have vowels. They are written _r_. You 
can't have phonological words without vowels.

We seem to be getting confused in this thread between phonetic vowels 
(what Kenneth Pike called 'vocoids') and phonological vowels.

A vocoid (phonetic vowel) is a sound lacking any closure or narrowing 
sufficient to produce friction. By this definition [r] is in fact a 
vowel, tho generally it functions like a consonant at the margins of 
syllables. This is Pike coined the term vocoid to describe all 'phonetic 
vowels'.

A phonological vowel is a unit which functions as the center of a 
syllable. In the Czech words above the <r> denotes the syllable nucleus 
or center, i.e. it denotes the _vowel_.
====================================================

Benct Philip Jonsson wrote:
 > On 2009-04-15 Eugene Oh wrote:
 >> I think you have subconsciously inserted an epenthetic schwa into your
 >> realisation of [pr\=].
 >
 > that's not necessary to assume at all.  Any
 > sonorant can function as a syllable nucleus. As
 > always articulations alien to one's L1 may be
 > 'impossible' for oneself, which doesn't mean
 > they're impossible for human beings.

EXACTLY!

This has been discussed on this list before. From what I recall of past 
YAEPTs the vowel in "bird" ranges from syllabic [r] through [@`] to [Vr] 
and to just plain mid central vowels with no rhoticity in the non-rhotic 
varieties of English.
======================================================

Linvi Charles wrote:
 > Would it be reasonable to declare that <r> corresponds to the rhotic 
vowel
 > (or at least approximant or something) only (excluding its use as a
 > consonant)?
 >
 > For example:
 >
 > "mrdr" would sound like "murder"
 > "drt" would sound like "dirt"
 > "lrn" would sound like "learn"

Certainly - I've long thought that these were the most sensible way of 
writing such words   :)

-- 
Ray
==================================
http://www.carolandray.plus.com
==================================
"Ein Kopf, der auf seine eigene Kosten denkt,
wird immer Eingriffe in die Sprache thun."
[J.G. Hamann, 1760]
"A mind that thinks at its own expense
will always interfere with language".

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